One won’t wade very far into church planting waters without being bombarded with the importance of being “missional.” Writing for Acts 29, Scott Thomas says:

A church that is not missional is not really a church. A church exists by mission as the sun exists by burning. When the sun loses its burn it ceases to be the sun. When a church loses its mission, it ceases to be a church.

The problem is that the word seems to have become sort of a junk drawer. You know, I’m willing to get that you have a drawer in your house into which you just throw things you have nowhere else to put. The term “missional” has come to mean different things to different people. So it becomes possible to have a conversation in which you come to realize at some point that you’re using the same words but in very different ways (hopefully you realize this if its happening!).

Part of the problem in even trying to define a term like this is that you’ll likely gravitate towards those with whom you already agree, at least to some extent. That having been said, one of the resources I’ve found to be quite helpful in thinking through many of these issues is Ed Stetzer’s Planting Missional Churches (formerly Planting New Churches in a Postmodern Age). Stetzer begins his book by noting that:

Establishing a missional church means that you plant a church that’s part of the culture you’re seeking to reach.

Stetzer states what should be the obvious but often seems to be lost in such discussions: “The goal of church planting is to reach people.” Right away this will be a major paradigm shift to some. Some feel the desire to plant a church because they simply feel they’ve got their theological ducks in a straighter row than others. This does not seem to be a biblical reason for planting a church. Yes, doctrine is important and cannot be divorced from church-life, but it doesn’t seem to be the biblical thrust behind the impetus to plant new churches. While the church is certainly commanded to protect doctrine, this seems to be under the more broad command to make disciples. One cannot properly make disciples without engaging in every step of this process, beginning with bringing the Gospel to the lost.

Missional then, in the sense that Stetzer puts forward, is a powerful reminder that, as he puts it: “It’s possible to be a missionary without ever leaving your zip code.” I would add that not only is it possible, it is expected. But we need to be careful and make a distinction between “Mission(s)-Minded” churches and “Missional” churches. Stetzer clarifies between the two terms (italics his):

The first refers more to an attitude of caring about missions, particularly overseas. Missional means actually doing mission right where you are. Missional means adopting the posture of a missionary, learning and adapting to the culture around you while remaining biblically sound. Think of it this way: missional means being a missionary without ever leaving your zip code. You can see how a particular congregation or denomination can be mission-minded without being missional.

Practically, of course, this means that it is possible to have a church that does a lot overseas but nothing at home, as odd as that might initially sound. Stetzer argues that this arises, at least in part from a false dichotomy between “missions” and “evangelism.” Missions is for out there somewhere while evangelism is for here. He argues that “There is no basis, biblically or theologically, for the territorial distinction of missions and evangelism.”

This thinking seems to contribute to what I believe to be a faulty question in the life of many churches: “Is our primary duty to feed the sheep or win the lost?” I have become convinced that this is the wrong question because our “primary” duty is to make disciples of Jesus Christ. This includes every step of the process, beginning with missions/evangelism. It is a continual process rather than an either/or question.

Furthering the discussion, Stetzer throws one other term into the mix: “on mission,” saying that:

on mission means being intentional and deliberate about reaching others.

Seems simple enough, right? And yet, many churches fully support abroad what they run from at home. We equip foreign missionaries to carefully study the cultural context, encouraging them to “contextualize” (without sacrificing content) the Gospel in such as way as it is most effective to that given cultural context. Yet, churches seem scared to death of the idea of “American” culture, either isolating from it or drowning in it. Or, we simply see a church that seems to be succeeding and we decide to import, lock, stock and barrel, what they are doing, regardless of any cultural differences that might exist between where they’re at from where we find ourselves.

We expect our missionaries to analyze and adapt to surrounding cultures yet we become doubtful of churches doing this, labeling them “liberal” or “emergent” or both. Why? Is it because we fear change? I would like to think that it’s because we’re so protective of the Gospel, but research demonstrates that most Americans who claim to be Christians don’t live anything like biblical Christians, so that doesn’t seem to be it either. Could it simply but profoundly that we don’t think of ourselves as missionaries, especially while singing “God Bless America” under flag-draped crosses?

If anything wrestling with terms like these ought to encourage us to rethink and reapply our approach to how the local church lives in the culture it finds itself.

• Read the article “What Is A Missional Church” by Scott Thomas for Acts 29
• Read Planting Missional Churches by Ed Stetzer
• Read Simple Church: Returning to God’s Process For Making Disciples by Thom S. Rainer and Eric Geiger
• Read Planting Growing Churches for the 21st Century by Aubrey Malphurs
• Read 44 Questions for Church Planters by Lyle E. Schaller

By now many of you have likely heard about the upcoming John 3:16 conference being put on by Jerry Vines ministries. No, this is not a conference on the Max Lucado book though that was my first thought too and that might be just as productive.

No, this is a conference during which several Arminian pastors will examine the issues of Calvinism. The Conferene’s website introduces it this way:

Did Jesus die on the cross for every person? Are believers eternally secure? Can grace be resisted? These and many other questions will be addressed.

This conference is not going to be a “Let’s bash the Calvinists” conference. This conference is going to be a biblical and theological assessment of and response to 5-point Calvinism. It will be helpful for lay people as well as preachers.

In case you were wondering, here is the proposed content:

John 3:16 - Dr. Jerry Vines

Total Depravity - Dr. Paige Patterson

Unconditional Election - Dr. Richard Land

Limited Atonement - Dr. David Allen

Irresistible Grace - Dr. Steve Lemke

Perseverance of the Saints - Dr. Ken Keathley

John 3:16 to the entire world - Dr. Charles Stanley

- There will be a 60-minute Q & A session following the last speaker -

I think it’s fine if some well-known Arminians want to examine Calvinism. I even think it’s fine if they choose not to have someone from the Reformed perspective present to clarify and explain. That’s their prerogative. But what I don’t think is fine is the implicit ad hominem nature of the conference itself. You see, even though they haven’t come out and directly said this, by making it known that they are taking issue with Calvinism, by naming the conference after one of the best-known of all Bible verses and closing with a session “John 3:16 to the entire world,” the organizers seem to be saying that Calvinists don’t believe John 3:16.

I’ve share many times (see here, here, here, here and especially here for example) that one of my frustrations in many of these discussions just how acceptable it has become in many circles to simply misrepresent the position of someone with whom you disagree. Of course Calvinists believe, support and promote John 3:16!

Some might say here something like “Well, yes, but by you Calvinists having conferences like Together For the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition, aren’t you implying that Arminians don’t believe the Gospel” No, and the reason I say that is because the purpose and topic of those gatherings was not to give the Calvinist “response” to Arminianism.

Perhaps I’m off here? Am I misconstruing this? Am I overreacting?

• Visit the official conference website
• Read The Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin
• Read The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner
• Read Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul

Recently, my 5-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter have been enjoying a special addition to our nightly bedtime routine. Thanks to their Grandma, we have a jumbo-sized canister of gourmet jelly beans…Jelly Bellies to be exact. Just before we do our Bible time and prayers, the kids ask Daddy to tell them a “jelly bean story,” which is just like any ol’ bedtime story except that the objects in the story present opportunities to slowly dole out jelly beans. For instance, the characters in the story might have a sudden thirst for root beer, which results in each child receiving a root beer flavored jelly bean. Likewise the characters might climb an orange tree, presenting the perfect juncture to pass out, you guessed it, orange jelly beans.

The first time we did a jelly bean story, I remember watching their little faces light up at every unexpected story and flavor twist. I savored the challenge of telling the story in a way that would keep them in rapt attention, never knowing when the next jelly bean would be handed out.

However, something changed after many weeks of jelly bean stories. The creativity and cohesiveness of my story-telling took a nose dive. You see, I was slowly starting to view the jelly bean story as a simple means of getting the bedtime routine kicked off so that I could get them quickly to bed. I would dispense the jelly beans in a slipshot manner, no longer taking the time to look for something delightful in the reaction of my children to a good story. Whether the story had any particular charm or flow made little difference to me after a long day. I think they’ve caught onto me, but at some base level, jelly beans are still an acceptable tradeoff.

Strangely enough, it took a conversation this week about books with my mother-in-law (their Grandma) to make me aware of my storytelling atrophy. She was recounting how some friends recommended a popular Christian work of fiction, saying “You just have to read it!” To her dismay, she found the book to be tedious with characters that could only be described as “one-dimensional”.

I responded by sharing my theory that Christians sometimes have an unhealthy view of the arts as merely a vehicle for a gospel presentation; rejecting the pursuit of beauty or truth as a sufficient justification for creative work. In a word, it’s utilitarianism. Then it hit me. That’s exactly what I was doing with the jelly bean story by cheaply slapping together a story with the “required elements” (a.k.a. jelly beans) without regard for the drama or quality of the story. The humor of this realization was not lost on me, the guy who is always quick to notice the lackluster nature of much of what currently passes as “Christian” music or books, yet who had unwittingly assumed that same mentality in my storytelling.

In further consideration, it occurred to me that this tendency rears its ugly head in more places than just the arts. Though Jesus Christ, in his person and his story, should provoke infinite wonder, we somehow manage to reduce our thoughts about him to mere catch phrases. It’s as if we were offered the greatest feast ever cooked, yet could only manage to describe it as “pretty good” or “nice”. It happens as a parent speaks to a child, as an artist speaks to an audience, and even as a pastor preaches to a congregation.

Writer and playwright Dorothy Sayers (1893-1957) wrote brilliantly about the irony of making Christ’s story dull in her essay “The Greatest Drama Ever Staged”:

This is the dogma we find so dull—this terrifying drama of which God is the victim and hero. If this is dull, then what, in Heaven’s name, is worthy to be called exciting? The people who [crucified] Christ, …to do them justice, [never] accused him of being a bore—on the contrary, they thought him too dynamic to be safe. It has been left for later generations to muffle up that shattering personality and surround him with an atmosphere of tedium. We have very efficiently pared the claws of the Lion of Judah, certified him “meek and mild,” and recommended him as a fitting household pet for pale [clergy] and pious old ladies. To those who knew him, however, he in no way suggests a milk-and-water person; they objected to him as a dangerous firebrand.

Speaking later of the person of Jesus Christ, his incarnation, and his dying in the place of guilty sinners, Sayers notes:

Now, we may call that doctrine exhilarating, or we may call it devastating; we may call it revelation, or we may call it rubbish; but if we call it dull, then words have no meaning at all. That God should play the tyrant over man is a dismal story of unrelieved oppression; that man should play the tyrant over man is the usual dreary record of human futility; but that man should play the tyrant over God, find him a better man than himself, is an astonishing drama indeed. Any journalist, hearing of it for the first time, would recognize it as news; those who did hear it for the first time actually called it news, and good news at that; though we are likely to forget that the word Gospel ever meant anything so sensational.

I trust that Sayers’ words challenge the reader as much as they do me. They help me to think on the great drama of the gospel and the wonder of Christ that should be shared with others. That’s a tall order (to say the least) but merely retelling his story with worn-out slogans or religious-sounding words isn’t enough. Doing so would either give a dull impression of my God or send the message that I have a low view of my audience’s capacity to take in the story. No, such blandness would treat the audience like toddlers who are satisfied with a sugar buzz instead of the captivating story they deserve.

• Read Dorothy Sayers’ works including Creed or Chaos? Why Christians Must Choose Either Dogma or Disaster (Or, Why It Really Does Matter What You Believe)
• Read Imagine: A Vision for Christians in the Arts by Steve Turner
• Read A Better Way: Rediscovering the Drama of God-Centered Worship by Michael Horton
• Munch some Jelly Belly jelly beans (except for the nasty coffee-flavored ones)
• Listen to the White Horse Inn
• Do not forward this post to the American Dental Association

I was flipping through the channels the other day while exercising and came across a talk show. I’m really not sure which one it is and as far as I’m concerned, most of them are basically interchangeable. Regardless, they were talking about how angels are involved in our daily lives and how we should even consider praying to them because they are so infinitely more wise than us they are and how much more powerful. This thinking is all-too common and it is quite unbiblical. Consider Hebrews 2:14-18:

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted

Or, consider 1 Peter 1:10-12:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

Think about what’s being said here, God does not help the angels the way He does people and our salvation in Christ has been something into which angels themselves even long to look. Oh, if only our talk-show hosts would read their Bibles. If only we would read our Bibles. If only we would understand the glory of salvation the way angels long to do.

• Read The Incomparable Christ by John Stott

The recent interview with Todd and Angie of The Agents of Future provoked a lot of great discussion, particularly in regards to local church communities and the way they worship. Much of that discussion reminded me of a set of principles we use at our church (Grace Community Church, Glen Rose, TX). This list was formulated by Gary Brumley, now Minister of Worship at Redeemer Church, Fort Worth and originally appeared at his blog, God-Centered Worship.

In light of many of the opinions regarding worship, I wanted to present these helpful principles. What follows is the document as Gary originally presented it on his blog. The only changes that have been made consist of formatting. The content is unchanged and appears as Gary intended:

By Gary Brumley

A few years ago I felt compelled to put on paper the values in worship that would both provide guidance to my church fellowship as well as serve as a teaching tool to help us grow and maintain harmony on the issue of corporate worship. Any worship leader knows, because worship is charged with so many cultural values that if wrongly understood (and man-centered in its orientation) it can be an explosive issue resulting in division among the church. God may that never again be so! The following ten principles are the result of my labor in the study of what the Bible says about God and our appropriate response to Him in worship. They have since become part of the ethos of Grace Community Church. I continue to hear people speaking of these principles on Sunday mornings around the coffee and donuts, in small group fellowships, and in various formal and informal settings. Here they are to share with you. I pray that they might serve you as well.

As a worshiping church we will seek to…

1. Be God-centered, understanding that God’s glory is His highest purpose in all things. We seek to make God central in our mind’s attention and our heart’s affections. We will seek to exalt Him by delighting in His glory (Isaiah 26:8; 48:9-11).

2. Worship in spirit and in truth. We understand worship to involve the Spirit-stirred affections of the heart, the devotion of the mind, and the submission of the will according to the truth of God (John 4:23-24).

• In spirit—worship that flows out of a new life in Christ (a new spirit given birth by the Holy Spirit) which involves our whole being – mind, heart, and will (Philippians 3:3; Ephesians 5:18-20; Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 6:4-5; Romans 12:1-2).
• In truth, we will seek to be Bible-saturated and doctrinally sound, giving Scripture prominence in worship as the basis of our response. We will read Scripture publicly and corporately and sing songs that reflect the truth of Scripture. All music will be examined for doctrinal correctness.

3. Hold worship as our highest calling, understanding the supremacy of worship in the believer’s life and in the mission of the church. Worship is the fuel and goal of all other ministries at GCC. Worship is the purpose for which we evangelize and do missions and the purpose for which we encourage and build each other up in the faith. Worship is the eternal purpose of the Church (Revelation 14:6-7; Psalm 96:3).

4. Incorporate both revelation and response, understanding that all response in worship is based upon God’s revelation of Himself. As God reveals His power, we respond in wonder. As God reveals His holiness, we respond in confession and contrition. As God reveals His grace, we respond in humility. As God reveals His purpose, we respond in surrender and commitment. As God reveals His plans for our lives, we respond in prayer. As God reveals His goodness, we respond in thankfulness (Isaiah 6:1-12; Psalm 100:4-5).

5. Be congregational. The Greek word, “leitourgia,” (used to describe worship in the New Testament for worship) is made up of ergon = “work”; and laos = “of the people.” The literal meaning then, would be, “work of the people.” The early Church understood worship to be a communal event in light of the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer. Every believer freely and enthusiastically participated in worship before the Lord (1 Peter 2:9). Therefore, we will seek to be congregational rather than leader/performer-driven in worship. We believe that any worship service whereby a worship leader, musical ensemble, soloist, etc. is given prominence over a congregation’s expression is not biblical leitourgia.

6. Worship God both in His transcendence and His imminence, understanding that God is worthy to be worshiped as the great King upon His throne in Heaven, as well as the Savior who meets with His children intimately (Revelation 7:9-12; 3:20).

7. Blend contemporary and historical songs of worship. We will seek to mine from history the very best of hymnody and couple these with the most passionate new God-centered songs of worship from our generation (Matthew 13:52).

8. Lead by the principle of undistracting excellence. “We will try to sing and play and pray and preach in such a way that people’s attention will not be diverted from the substance by shoddy ministry nor by excessive finesse, elegance, or refinement. Natural, undistracting excellence will let the truth and beauty of God shine through. Sound system, music playing… all undistracting from the aim of thinking about God. Avoid the flair of words and chords that draw attention mainly to the performance and style and not the substance” (John Piper, from Gravity and Gladness on Sunday Morning: the Pursuit of God in Corporate Worship). We will seek excellence in all we do for the purpose of drawing attention to the supreme excellencies of God (Psalm 33:3; John 3:30).

9. Maintain a balance of form and freedom in worship.

10. Be continually growing in our biblical understanding and our practice of worship (Psalm 40:3; 98:1; 149:1).

• Read Engaging With God: A Biblical Theology of Worship by David Peterson
• Read Worship By the Book edited by Mark Ashton
• Read Unceasing Worship: Biblical Perspectives on Worship and the Arts by Harold Best

Gary Brumley graduated from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette in 1998, with a Bachelor of Vocal Music Education. He received his Master of Arts in Worship Studies degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, in May of 2004. Gary also serves within the Redeemer Church Care Group ministry. He and his wife, Christi, married in December, 1995.

By Robert Blake

Over the last few years, God has impressed upon me the meaning of “church” or as I say now “church community or community of believers.” Why have I added to the meaning of the word we speak?

Because, the concept of church now in the American church is it is the place I pop in and out quickly on Sundays when I wake up in time. The problem points to the lack of real community us occurring in our churches.

I see individualism as a primary root cause. We are to make it on our own, present the best side to other people all the time. It leads to alienation, confusion, defeatist attitudes and a lack of understanding the meaning of scriptures.

Consider this, all scripture is written within the context of community. For the community of God’s children to know Him and how to live in a manner that keeps the community functioning. Take for example, Acts we see a new church community forming. There were problems with the new community, as following Christ was extended to all people of all kinds. How should a jewish person treat a gentile who is now in their community, after all they do lots of unsavory things that are considered unclean. Surely, it is not what Jesus wanted was it, Christianity is just and extension of what we have always done right? And the Gentiles thinking the opposite, the goody two shoes just do not get it, why should we comply with their ways? This is not what Jesus meant was it? The answer given by the group of elders was that everyone is to focus on community and serving one another. They said, do what is best for one another.

Community and keeping the unity within is what took center stage, for the sake of the gospel and ultimately doing what Christ instructed us to do in loving our neighbors.

As I begun to understand the context of community scripture begins to change in meaning. It is no longer isolated and insular to myself only. Take example Colossians 3, it begins with the strong words of placing your hearts devotion on Christ and Him only. And then goes on to explain what? A long list of do’s and do not do’s right? No, it is more complex than that. It is about restored relationships, and how to live in that restoration.

You see a hearts focus on anything other than God leads to a broken relationship with others and with God. A hearts focus on Christ leads to a restored relationship with God and with those around you. That is the essence of community. We are not to live as separate individuals, but people living side by side with one another. Showing understanding and care for those who are mature or weak in their relationship with Christ.

Now it never seems to fail as I read scripture, community is woven all throughout it. Why is it I lived so long without it? What keeps us from being honest with others about my struggles and challenges? Why do we avoid being transparent.

The lack of community leads us to malnourishment, and ultimately a weak and worthless faith. One that has a small Jesus and small cross that only forgives our small pet sins and leads us guilt ridden over the things that are truly wrong. It is bondage. Community can lead to freedom, joy and deeper relationship with Christ. So why continue to avoid it?

• Read “Moving From Solitude, To Community To Ministry” (online article) by Henri Nouwen
• Read Relationships: A Mess Worth Making by Tim Lane and Paul Trip
• Read When People Are Big and God is Small by Edward T. Welch

Robert W. Blake has been a Christian since 1985. He is a social work supervisor in the Philadelphia area. He has devoted his professional career and much volunteer work in working with children and families in crisis. He has been married for 10 years and recently adopted a son from India, their first child. He has been attending New Life Presbyterian church in Glenside, PA since 1991. He is interested in local and international missions and has been on many short term trips over the years. He is an avid music fan and writes reviews occasionally for the Phantom Tollbooth. He specializes in indie music and music by Christians for the secular market.

The group’s Myspace page introduces them by saying:

“1998: A bunch of Jesus-loving, jalopy-gospel way-backers get together and do creative things: Shrieking, speaking, flailing, failing, storytelling, fear-quelling. In the process, songs and stories are smithed and written, friendships and families are stretched and shaken, stirred and strengthened. Genre-gender-class-past-death-defiers and town-crying demystifiers of mystery history lead these pacifistic, full-frontally ballistic missives. Best of all, on frequent occasions, we see entombed voices raisin’ and we peek through the haze. ***NOW: More than one dog year together, these doors’re gonna swing wiiiiide.”

The group’s unique approach to worship is borne from a unique community, The Bridge, in Portland, OR. Several years and three albums worth of material later, the lamp of creativity is still burning brightly for worship. I recently spoke with Todd and Angie Fadel from the group to find out more about them, their creative process, ideas of worship and views on “Christian” music.

• What is your typical songwriting process?

We’ve done this thing in practice for a while now. Angie and I have been writing songs together for about 10 years. One of the things I felt was really helpful going into songwriting was implementing a “no criticism” zone. We give ourselves totally leeway about anything; any words, any melodies, whatever. We record it all and then, after that time has passed, we go back and see what works, but not mid-way through the process, which I think a lot of musicians do that. Many artists get stuck because anytime something comes out, they’re critical, either of their fellow band members or whatever and they’ve got a real specific idea of how they want it to sound and impose that on everyone but that ends up being a real creativity killer. We’re really mindful of that in our process. We are not going to attack each other’s ideas, we just let them free-flow and then pick the ones that are our favorites, which there could be more than a few and we often find more than a single song.

• How did the group come about? It’s tied to the Bridge pretty closely, is that right?

That’s pretty much it. Prior to the Bridge starting, there was a really close-knit group of musicians and artists, involved in things like the TOM Festival. The result was that there was just a group of people that started hanging out together. The Bridge started after that initial group had been hanging out together for about four years. A bunch of people came down from Washington state with the hopes of starting a church for this group of people.

But what was original about the way they did it was, rather than coming down and saying “This is what we think needs to happen in a church,” they fell in love with the culture that was already existed and kind of asked “can we be you” and came into our culture rather than the other way around and then just saw how those things would play out in terms of authentic expression of worship and faith. As a result, we were really allowed to flourish in this new community and we were all grateful. But it did take some time. I think a lot of us were very skeptical at first about these people who kept saying “No one can take your future from you. You are valuable and we love you.” We had all, to some degree, been burned by older adults saying “This all sounds fine, but you’ve got to get right with God” and not giving us any direction other than saying things like “You’ve really just to tap into the Lord!” Then these other people came and just said “You show us what you’ve learned.” That sort of leadership drew a huge creative spirit out of all us in a community way.

After a good year of this community had gone by, we’d written a ton of songs and wanted to record. We rarely would do any songs that were written by people outside of our community. So we wanted to capture that in an album but didn’t know if we should call it “The Bridge.” As we were talking about it, one of the co-pastors, Ken, was praying for the music team and he prayed that God would be with these “Agents of Future,” and we just thought, “Well, that’s it,” that’s the name for the group. It wasn’t describing the music, it was describing us creative people. Agents of Future is just sort of the name for what we call ourselves as a collective. At least that’s the idea! Any time there’s any songs we want to record that come out of our community, we call it that.

• So the music we hear on the albums, is that used for corporate worship?

Yes, that’s all it is. We’ve only done three or four actual concerts out in the community with the music, just because …… Angie and I ran an all ages venue in Portland for about five years doing about 1,200 shows. It was a real crazy time in music where we had a chance to develop relationships with some really amazing artists like Death Cab for Cutie, Bright Eyes, Le Tigre, The Thermals, all the Portland bands you might have heard of, they came through the club. They’d just be starting out or we’d put them on a bill to help them get going. It developed in us a real respect that, in a very similar way as to when the people from Everett came down without imposing themselves on us, it made us realize that the context doesn’t necessarily fit. If I was going to open for Death Cab for Cutie, the context doesn’t fit because our point is a real participatory expression and that doesn’t work well in those performance settings.

• That brings up an interesting concept, because content-wise, you’re a worship band, but presentation-wise, you’re not what most people associate with worship and even “Christian” music.

From my standpoint, since I’ve been a part of, or at least observing the Christian music thing, I just feel like it’s really been diluted. It’s diluted the strength of people’s personalities and people’s spirit. But any type of marketing runs the risk of diluting what the people’s hearts are really about. It’s almost worse when you bring in people’s faith because then you’re taking something mystical and trying to make it quantifiable. You end up with people counting how many times Jesus is mentioned, or Bible verses, but that’s a joke to everybody. That’s a joke to artists whose audience is primarily Christian and it’s a joke to anyone else. So of course creativity does not compute when you’re talking about Christian contemporary music because it’s been divorced from it. Anybody whose creative sees that dilution happen when marketing is involved.

So the best way we can share our stuff is real directly. If people want to learn methods or us to encourage writers who are already there, or maybe even writers who don’t even know that they’re writers, artists and dancers, in their own communities, that’s what we feel called to do. We’d love to make a living at what we feel God has given us a gift for.

• You mentioned the dilution that happens when marketing becomes involved, particularly in a “Christian” music sense. But if you look over the course of history, it has often been the Church at the forefront of creativity. What happened?

Any time someone knows that they can make a living off of it, you run the risk of that. There are few people who can really pull it off, like Radiohead or the Beatles and really bring their fans along on this artistic journey. There are very few people like that, that people say “wherever they go, we’re going to follow them.”

And honestly, when the smallest run of LPs you can do is 1,000, you’ve got to figure out some way to sell it. So you’ve got to hear in a nutshell, “Why should I buy your record instead of this person’s record?” You have to get rid of your product, so it’s inherent. I was in a band on an alternative Christian label in the ‘90’s and it was hilarious trying to define for them what we were doing. I had been a big fan of Steve Malkmus’ lyrics in the band Pavement. So the lyrically approach, I got a lot of inspiration from people like him and Frank Black and most Christian labels don’t have a grid for that style, so you’re just left with words like “raw” and “passionate.” But that robs it of its organic process to become similarity driven and all inclusive.

Our goal is to show that you don’t lose your personality, you gain it. If anything, everyone finds their place in our community. There’s not a sense of one person taking over. Everybody is equally a part of it. That’s no easy task but we have really made that a priority in our community, to make sure that every single person gets a chance.

Recently, we had someone come to one of our services who lived in our neighborhood. She had a beautiful singing voice and we asked her to sing with us. We wanted to support that. She was in her mid 60’s or 70’s and just passed away. That was a reminder of how important it is to include and support people and use their talents and love them for who they are. Her daughter said that when we expressed excitement about her being involved in music, that she felt like God had answered her prayers. For me, it’s not about the music or the art, if I’m giving someone a sense that God has answered their prayers because they feel part of a community, that’s worth more than making a living at this.

• For someone who has yet to witness what you do, how would you try to describe it?

Anthems. Shouted anthems. Spirituals. Punk spirituals. Garage Gospel. Passion before precision. Female-fronted. I play the piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, so female-fronted, boogie woogie garage gospel? Garage spirituals.

• How did your collaboration with Glen Galloway of Soul-Junk come about?

That was really cool. Before the Bridge, one of the people that was part of the original group introduced us to Glen’s music and we got in touch with him. We just couldn’t believe there was this guy just singing Bible verses. Later, they came through town and we got to meet them all and they all came to church with us to our little home gathering and it was great. I was writing most of the music collaboratively even back then and we felt like we had a connection with Glen.

Then about a year ago, I decided to put together this thing called the WHIRRSHIP , a creative collaboration, sort of a workshop, but moreso just an experiment to see how many different things we could do all at the same time collaboratively. So we asked Glen to be a part of that and he came to the house and I played piano with him during his show. Then when he was doing his next album, he asked me to be a part of that which was a huge opportunity. I love Daniel Smith and we got to record in his studio. It was a great three days, I got to hang out with Lenny and Marian Smith.

• What’s next for you?

We spent a lot of time over the past few years getting to know some people from Enter the Worship Circle. Just on a whim we sent some stuff over to them. It was right after Village Thrift and I thought they might be ready for us. They weren’t. But they did tell us that out of all the stuff they got we were the only original sounding ones because everyone else just mimicked the Enter the Worship Circle style and we had been in our own little niche for so long, we couldn’t do anything but sound different. Our friend Tracy Howe who lives in Colorado and has worked with Ben and Robin Paisley, she’s doing this thing called The Restoration Project, touring with Brian McLaren on his Everything Must Change tour. She helped us be a part of the Fall Out Arts Festival. She’s got a bunch of different thing lined up for us this summer. We’ll probably be in Texas and then Colorado and that’s pretty much it. One of the things we really want to do is just sit down in our living room and record. We have like 36 songs that have yet to be recorded so we want to record a triple album in one night! The other thing I thought of was to record all of the songs and then release them one a week and just have people sign up to receive the songs over the course of a year, give ourselves a 36-week head start! As far as the music goes, we’re just trying to gather up these songs.

But one of the things we’re doing that would be cool to let people know about is if they e-mail or message us through Myspace, we’re going to be giving updates on a very regular basis of what we’re doing, whether it’s just putting up a new song or whatever. So we’re working on developing an e-mail list. We just want to maintain that personal connection.

We would love to work with any churches or small communities that are looking tap into everyone in their community and try to find ways to involve and include everyone and just make it feel like nothing they’ve ever felt before. Not run of the mill, this is what a worship service should look like type of thing. If they’re wanting help challenging the way of looking at things, they should let us know. We’d love to be part of that process.

We believe that every community has their own voice. It’s great if they want to use our songs, but our passion is to help them figure out what their songs are for their community.

It can tend to be for some people just “OK, everyone is doing Hillsong now, that’s what we should be doing too.” Hillsong is probably flattered (and they’re making money), that all these churches are using their songs, but how does that make them feel? Do they really think that it makes sense for a church 5,000 miles away to sing exactly what they’re singing and dress like they do?

One term I really want to introduce is “Rubinizing.” Rick Rubin is a famous producer who works with people like Neil Diamond and Johnny Cash, people that we’ve almost forgotten about and he’s helped us look at them in a different light by putting their music into a completely new context. I really believe that if we work hard at including people that have been forgotten by helping to put them in a new context, “Rubinizing” them, I think we could truly see some beautiful things happening in our own communities, realizing that maybe that 87-year old Grandmother who sews in the back of the church, maybe she’s got stories to tell, maybe she’s got artwork she’s not showing because she doesn’t think it’s important to anyone. I feel like that’s the kind of church that would attract the entire world. Not the kind of church we have right now because when an artist goes into most churches, they just don’t feel like they can justify doing what they’re doing.

• So if a church wants to take you up on this offer, how would you help them find “their voice?”

Trying everything you haven’t tried before. A songwriting game for example. If you put anything in the context of a game, it tricks our minds into feeling that things are approachable and manageable. What we do, we start covertly helping people develop this ability to not be critical of each other’s expression. We involve every age group and background.

I see it as a community being like a 50-legged race. You know the 3-legged race where you’re tied together? Everyone has one leg tied together. At the beginning, it’s the most awkward, gross feeling and you don’t know what to do but then after a while, you just count, 1-2, 1-2 and soon, you have this community, 50 people strong walking, slowly but surely to a goal. That’s possible with any community.

There’s also obviously a context because we’re not going to go and just impost a “Contemporary Service” because I don’t think that’s necessary. People just try to throw this “Contemporary Service” band-aid on stuff and it’s just silly. How do we include everyone? We find out what their voices are, not only with the young but the old people.

So we’ll play games and help people develop tools of being non-critical, helping people to look at one another in a loving, inclusive way, laying their aesthetics and preferences aside in hopes of making a beautiful collage. In fact, one of my future ideas is a media player that would show all of the different media at once. Like the YouTube players that have eight different mini-screens or something but what if the entire player was talking about Grace or something. So you have your musicians, your artists, your storytellers, your dancers, your comics, whatever expression is represented in your community and that player contains every single one of those things. But then each community has their own player and it’s all on one page. How beautiful would that be?! How beautiful is the church of the world! Realizing that these are all different people and expressions, this collage of beauty, that’s what Jesus is wanting us to do for one another. I know that’s a long-term goal, but that’s the type of thing I see happening; people looking at their lives and seeing everything, the imperfections and everything and making it into this way to appreciate what God has given them in their community.

• Visit the Bridge’s website
• Visit the Agents of Future’s Myspace page
• Read an interview with Todd at The Blah Blah