I could not have said it better friend. I go to a SBC “church.” The topic was brought up in Sunday School. It was me and one other guy who agreed that drinking alcohol was ok. We pointed out what you have mentioned, to no avail. They wouldn’t listen.

You inspired me to create my own resolve. What say you concerning it?

‘…your vats will overflow with new wine.’

Brent,

Simply put — thank you so much for writing this.

For the record, I don’t drink — at all. It’s just not my thing. However, I challenge anyone to find a verse that says it is a sin to drink wine. The Proverbs 20:1 reference says it is evil to be “led astray” or “deceived” by strong drink. Not the same thing.

Honestly, this is one of those issues where I sort of wish the Bible did come right out and say it — “it is a sin to drink” — just to settle the debate. However, I just don’t find it in my Bible, and I’m not going to make up something or twist scripture around to fit my personal preference.

Just my two cents worth,

Carey D

Would you guys feel the same way about smoking pot or using drugs, in moderation of course?

That wont be much of a sin would it.

Great blog entry!

Not only this, but the decision was made after they heard many of the same Scriptures you referenced! I am not judging anyone’s standing before God here, but it is a scary thing to, after hearing Scripture to the contrary, to persist in your tradition.

All the committee’s side had was “avoid the appearance of evil” which they should know is more accurately rendered “avoid every kind of evil.”

“RastaNate” at “take6.com,”

I cannot speak for others, but I would not feel the same way “about smoking pot or using other drugs,” even in moderation and yes, those things would “be much of a sin.”

There are several issues at play here. Throughout Scripture, we are commanded to obey the laws of our land if they are biblical. Marijuana and other substances are illegal and therefore out of consideration for anyone simply on that fact alone.

Next, you have made a poor correlation. We are commanded not to become drunk (by implication, this means impaired as well) and to remain “sober-minded” and “alert.” It is possible to partake moderately of alcohol while obeying these commands. It is not possible to take ‘a little LSD’ and do the same. The THC in marijuana immediately affects your brain in a way that alcohol does not. Therefore, physiologically, you have made a poor correlation.

Next, we must never cause a brother or sister to stumble. It is possible to partake of alcohol in a way that you will not cause some to stumble. The same is not true of other substances. I’m not advocating you go around experimenting who will be offended if you drink in front of them, simply calling for biblical discernment. They key to liberty is the willingness to give it up at any instance, not a “look what I can do” mentality.

I realize that these are difficult issues for some, but Scripture simply doesn’t call drinking a sin, it calls being drunk a sin and in fact, it clearly allows for wise use of alcohol, even calling wine a gift from God. Is abstinence the best “practical” argument? Probably, but once we say it is the only argument, we have gone beyond Scripture and elevated our own standards above God’s and I’m not willing to do that.

Being a former stoner, Brent is exactly correct. Any amount of Pot shifts your mind - you are no longer clear thinking.

My husband and I have had this discussion off and on for 2o years…not so much what the Bible says about wine, but about beer. Anyone know if the principle in scripture applies to beer or other so-called hard liquor as well? I can’t stand the taste or smell of beer or liquor…especially on my husband after he has partaken of his “adult beverage”! But I have tried to be accepting of the freedom in Christ he feels he has to privately consume these drinks because of what the Bible does say about wine. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks.

Lisa;

Great question about beer. It’s interesting that the Bible mentions wine and not beer because it seems that the ancient Egyptians were known to brew their own beer, so it is not a new scenario.

To be honest, I would think that beer would be less of an issue since in reality it typically has a lower alcohol content than wine. Now of course you have to take in all of the sociological aspects (is beer attached with a stigma that wine isn’t, or vice versa, etc.). However, overall, I would say that the same principles apply to beer as do wine.

I really appreciate your views, but that is just it I gues, a viewpoint. There is no way the bible would talk about wine or drunkeness at length because it was not an issue back then. If the bible was written now, I’m sure it would be a diffrent case.

Anyway, I got this from http://www.amazingfacts.org

There are many forms of this compound called alcohol. However, there is no mistaking that all of them are classified as poisons-toxins to the human body. The alcohol found in beverages such as beer, wine, and brandy is ethanol (C2H5OH), a clear, highly flammable liquid that has a burning taste and a characteristic ethereal odor.

What happens when one consumes this type of alcohol? Well, death usually occurs if the concentration of ethanol in the bloodstream exceeds about five percent! But even for those who use it sparingly, immediate behavioral changes, impairment of vision and judgment, and unconsciousness can occur at lower concentrations.

That’s interesting, isn’t it? That’s exactly the same effect that other illicit drugs, such as heroin and marijuana, have on those who use those substances. I doubt there are any Christian churches that would condone the use of these drugs in even a casual social setting-or to even “calm the nerves” before bedtime. Is there any reason that alcohol should not be included in this list of drugs to avoid?

You say: “There is no way the bible would talk about wine or drunkeness at length because it was not an issue back then,” but the entire point of this conversation is that the Bible talks about wine and drunkeness quite clearly. Just look at the verses I’ve cited, get a concordance and look up wine, drunk, drunkard, etc. It certainly was and still is an issue.

There are several issues at play here. Throughout Scripture, we are commanded to obey the laws of our land if they are biblical. Marijuana and other substances are illegal and therefore out of consideration for anyone simply on that fact alone.

It is legal to do most of these things in Holland, so I wont be sinning If I smoke it over there or sleep with a prostitute.

I hope I’m not coming accross disrespectful.

1 Corinthians 10:23: “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.”

The law is only one aspect in consideration, never a final arbitrator. Scripture takes priority when civil laws err from its standards. Extramarital sex is always wrong and so is the use of mind-alerting substances such as THC.

“Does Ministry Fuel Addictive Behavior”…

Religious culture has a hard time with pastors and pastor’s families who have flaws. Of course, the healthiest congregations do not expect their pastors to walk on water, do not put their pastors on pedestals. But in my experience, such……

I say avoid that which will cause you (and not just your brother) to stumble.

I stumble wih the SBC… on second thought I think I was pushed.

I avoid heavy lifting so that I won’t someday be addicted to oxycontin.

“How does it feel to exclude Jesus from your denomination” This is a ridiculous and offensive blog title. You do; however, get brownie points for shock value. I agree brent that the sbc did not exegete that passage very well. However, the stand they are taking on the issue does have some validity. Do we as Christians want to be associated with something that has been so destructive in our society? Further, in regard to the blog title, if a misguided conviction means that a church or organization has excluded Jesus, then God have mercy on us all!

If brownie points cause people to take Scripture more seriously, then I’ll take them. I agree with you that alcohol has been destructive, but you and I both know that’s not the real issue. The isse is a denomination that consistently goes beoyond the bounds of Scripture in order to set up false codes of morality. It is a denial of the sufficiency of Scripture from the very “Conservative Resurgence” people who made it a hill to die on!

I think the title is somewhat accurate though, because, as it stands, Jesus could not be a student at an SBC seminary, He could not be a member at many SBC churches, and now he could neither be a board member or a trustee. I really think Jesus would ask why an entire denomination would exclude the very people from church membership whom we are called to reach. “You struggle with alcohol, I’m sorry, you can’t be a member here…”

The Proverbs exegesis is again only part of the problem. The fact that they simply ignore other Scripture and its implications is scary. The fact they they convict consciences and exclude people where Scripture does not should not be allowed to stand and God help us to turn the glass inward and see where we all go beyond Scripture.

I’m not even arguging for liberty, I’m arguing that we take Scripture seriously and we not go beyond it. The only reason I bring up the other alcohol passages is to show that they have been ignored in place of a false morality.

Alcohol is really only the tip. It’s indicative of a system that picks and chooses Scripture, that elevates tradition (only what’s convenient, or we’d see more Reformed Baptist churches with elders…), spends an unhealthy amount of time and energy on inside politics, erects false codes of piety and then pats itself on the back.

I appreciate your thoughts Chad, I really do, but I’ve yet to see a good defense of what the convention has done other than alcohol “has been so destructive in our society.” So has overeating, so has television, so have false numbers in church reporting! Where are the resolutions against these? They won’t happen and we both know it and that breaks my heart and in the end, it is the heart that is the true issue here, is it not?

OK dude, listen let’s ask ourselves. Does alcohol, culturaly speaking, exist in our society as it did in the first century? No… Alcohol clearly has become an evil in our society. The Bible does speak to that principally. You know as well as I do that there are many issues in regard to ethics and morality that the Bible must address principally rather than directly. These other issues (that are breaking your heart) do not have the same landmark cultural impact that alcohol has today. Just ask organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. The last time I checked there is no group with the name, Mothers Against Fat Drivers. It is my opinion that if Jesus were walking earth today he would not be drinking recreationally. Therefore, I believe the blog title does not hold up. I’m not sure that I feel as strongly about this issue as the SBC leadership. However, I do see where they are coming from and I do not think that they ought to be villainized for it.

May I clarify “these other issues (that are breaking my heart):

It breaks my heart to see dying churches erect pillars of legalism as if they can support anything. It breaks my heart to see people excluded from anything based on preference rather than Scriptural mandate. It breaks my heart to see Resolutions on Integrity in Church Membership ignored straw-men are beaten to death. It breaks my heart to see the Bible ignored and social convention raised as our judge. It breaks my heart to know that these denominational leaders couldn�t pass any valid hermeneutics course. It breaks my heart to see Jesus� message so twisted and walls so falsely erected.

The bottom line is that I’m not comfortable binding people’s consciences where Scripture does not. It is crystal clear when it prohibits being drunk and I for one think that if God had meant for us to go farther, He would have said so.

I’m a little dissapointed brent….

“The last time I checked there is no group with the name, Mothers Against Fat Drivers.”

You didn’t mention this line from my last entry. That was the best one!

I put a link to this current post on my blog. Here are the comments I received so far. All are in french. But I assume every good Calvinist should be able to read french! ;-)

Here in the Province of Quebec, Canada, Christians use to speak about the same issue. I think here too some of them are struggling with alcohol. But I never saw it showing itself at the level of an entire denomination. But my friends and I agree with you.

Sorry Daniel, I cannot read French. I will not have to learn French (if at all) until 2nd year of phd studies, which (God willing) is three or four years from now. I’m sure your entry was quite good……

Here is a translation, courtesy of the built-in translator on my Mac PowerBook.

Alcohol makes speak the Christians!

Here a link towards a very interesting post written by Colossians 3:16
concerning Southern Baptists and their position on the alcohol
consumption: How Does It Feel To Exclude Jesus From Your
Denomination?.

With the next one!

12:52 PM, George Larabie said… I often had the same discussion at
the biblical school or I studied. Their position is as pointed as that
of the SBC. Attention should be however paid not to miss a respect. It
seems to to me that the author of the blogist Colossians 3:16 is hard
at the place of the leaders of the SBC.

I like what he said here: “Let me get to the point: I am not advocating the abuse of liberty (nor of alcohol). Abstinence is probably the best approach, but that is not how this resolution is worded. If they had simply replaced �alcohol use� with �alcohol abuse� they would have been well within the bounds of Scripture.”

10:32 AM, steve said… The position of SBC on alcohol is a total
aberration. I am quite happy that one as of their firmly denounces
this legalism without base in the Writing.

2:15 PM, Dany Charon said… I believe that the SBC is too far
affirming that the use of alcohol carries out to the dependence. I
find damage to see in my Christian brothers this facheuse practice
with “d�moniser” the things whereas it seems more suitable to to me
to make a warning against an improper use. It’s a pity that the author
of the blogist adopts a tone also scorning at their place. It would
not have to be forgotten that in spite of our differences
d�nominationnel and our dissension we are however member of the same
family as a Christ.

4:05 PM, Daniel Audette said… You are now two with agreeing with the
position of the author while denouncing the scorning tone of its
remarks.

Once again, the beauty of the Mac at work…

Brent, I think the overall theme of the Canadian’s blog is that they aggree with you essentially, but do not like the scornfull tone that it has? Is that right?

Oh! We have been translated! I really really thought every Calvinist was able to read French because Calvin was a French Reformer. I must now recognize that Mac is a better Calvinist than everyone else participating to this blog. ;-)

Thanks Mac, sorry I mean thank you Philip ;-), for having thought to translate it for everyone. I just didn’t think to do it myself.

So as you can see, we are also struggling with this same issue here in Canada. Not in the way you do guys, but surely in a way that is neither beneficial for Christians.

So as you can see, we are also struggling with this same issue here in Canada. Not in the way you do guys, but surely in a way that is neither beneficial for Christians.

In the past it was with the Gedeons that we had to deal on that particular issue. But now they are allowed to drink alcohol. Nevertheless, I met many of them who do not drink at all, regardless the fact that they are permitted to do so. I think they still believe that drinking alcohol is a stumbling block for others and that, in a certain way, it can prevent them to accomplish their ministry to its best. That seems strange to me, because Jesus used to drink alcohol to do/while doing his ministry among publicans and sinners.

Any New Testament or Old Testament history book will show that the abuse of alcohol was always a problem.

That’s exactly the point; it is the abuse of alcohol that is a problem. If SBC officials had simply inserted that word instead of using a blanket to condemn all “use” in which they clearly went beyond Scrpture, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Thaks for the comment.

The question that needs to be asked is “what are the limits of state power” in regards to “any” intoxicant, be it alcohol, cannabis, opium or mescaline. There is no moral differance between alcohol and opium. In fact, from a “health” viewpoint it would be better if people used opium instead of alcohol. And if anyone chooses “abstinence” I ask: Why do you need the government to “force” you into abstinence ? Why can’t you simply do that on your own ? I have no objection to anyone who abstains from any intoxicant as long as it’s “voluntary”.

To those who think alcohol should be legal and available but opium and cannabis illegal I say you are a hypocrite. Consider your grandparents and great grandparents, the protestant prohibitionist. The 1920 mission statement of the “Board of Temperence, Prohibition and Public Morals” of the Methodist Episcopal Church read:

“The object of this board is to promote voluntary total abstinence from all intoxicants and narcotics, to enforce existing statutory laws and constitutional provisions that suppress the liquor traffic and to secure the speedy enactment of such legislation throughout the world”
(source: The World Service of the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1923, page 587)

Your predecessor’s drew no moral distinction between liquor and narcotics (opium). They were right, there is no moral distinction. The Harrison Narcotics Act passed in 1914. The 18th Amendment passed in 1919. Cannabis (not included in the Harrison Act) was still legal in most states in 1920. And they wanted prohibition “worldwide”. International alcohol prohibition failed, but international drug prohibition is still with us.

Those who say we don’t want legal alcohol “AND” legalized drugs is like the guy who says “gambling is a sin but we’ll allow blackjack. But those who play poker or dice must be criminalized”.

I refuse to engage in such hypocrisy.

I believe that cannabis, opium, coca leaf and peyote should be controlled and regulated in a manner similar to alcohol. And that chemicals removed from their natural state such as injectable morphine should be available only with a medical prescription.

Whether you voluntarily abstain from any intoxicant is not the point. The point is do you have to have the government force you to abstain, and accept the tyranny that inevetibly follows.

I personally believe that the moderate use of alcohol is nowhere forbidden in scripture. However, from a personal standpoint, I avoid alcohol, simply from a health perspective. As the granddaughter of a woman who was confirmed drunkard, and basically coming from a background (not my parents, their parents and families) of alcohol abusers, I am at high risk of doing the same. In fact, I am at higher risk, because for some odd reason, the grandchildren of grandmothers who abused alcohol were at higher risk than their parents. It is in the name of wisdom and discretion that I avoid alcohol, not because the Bible says that it is forbidden.

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