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	<title>Comments on: More On The Color of Jazz</title>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: William E. Turner Jr.</title>
		<link>http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/archives/40#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>William E. Turner Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/?p=40#comment-71</guid>
		<description>Sean,

My rearrangement of Miller's subtitle is a play on words - it is written tongue and cheek.  It is my fault for not putting one of those smiley faces next to the comment.  In other words it was a joke.

But as my wife often reminds me - there is always some truth in jest.  I will not deny that Miller has some good points that the church needs to hear, but I do believe that overall his message does more harm that good.  To argue my case it would require a more indepth interaction with his work but here are a few brief and random thoughts.

First, Miller continually denigrates the church, the glorious body of Christ.  This gets tiring after a while.  Of course, the church has problems, but he speaks very little positive of the church universal.  To do so is to denigrate the body of Christ.  Problems in the church need to be pointed out but there are more constructive, more biblical ways of doing it.

Secondly, in continually ridiculing the church he seems to strive closer to promoting unity with the world than with the church.  Again, how does this fit with Ephesians 4?  

Thirdly, his writing reminds me of Erasmus' excellent and hilarious "In the Praise of Folly" (and other satirical works).  In this work he ridicules the Roman Catholic church and takes them to task for all their moral failures.

Yet, Erasmus' attempt at Reform failed.  Why did it fail?  Because he sought only a moral reformation.  I see much of this desire for moral reformation in Miller.  This isn't necessarily wrong but it is misguided.  It took Luther to see that reformation needed to begin with theology.  This is where Miller seems to miss the boat in my opinion.

And lastly, I would just like to challenge you to think about how Christ centered and gospel centered Miller's work really is.  If he wants such a change - and change is needed - he seems to be barking up the wrong tree.  It is a Reformation of the gospel and of Christ in all his glory which the church so desperately needs.  Then moral reform will flow out of that theological reform.

I do truly apologize if my "parody" of Miller's book offended you.  I don't think it was wreckless because it was meant in jest (with some truth behind it), but nonetheless I believe Miller is the one who is really wreckless, because he has failed to see the heart of the problem which is the necessity for a reformation of gospel and Christ centered living.

Sean, I have been rather busy lately but I am planning on writing a more lengthy review of Miller's work.  Hopefully within the next few weeks I will begin and I will provide support and justification for my reasoning.  If interested please check my blog in a few weeks or e-mail me at weturner777 - at - hotmail.com

wir sein pettler, hoc est meum...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,</p>
<p>My rearrangement of Miller&#8217;s subtitle is a play on words - it is written tongue and cheek.  It is my fault for not putting one of those smiley faces next to the comment.  In other words it was a joke.</p>
<p>But as my wife often reminds me - there is always some truth in jest.  I will not deny that Miller has some good points that the church needs to hear, but I do believe that overall his message does more harm that good.  To argue my case it would require a more indepth interaction with his work but here are a few brief and random thoughts.</p>
<p>First, Miller continually denigrates the church, the glorious body of Christ.  This gets tiring after a while.  Of course, the church has problems, but he speaks very little positive of the church universal.  To do so is to denigrate the body of Christ.  Problems in the church need to be pointed out but there are more constructive, more biblical ways of doing it.</p>
<p>Secondly, in continually ridiculing the church he seems to strive closer to promoting unity with the world than with the church.  Again, how does this fit with Ephesians 4?  </p>
<p>Thirdly, his writing reminds me of Erasmus&#8217; excellent and hilarious &#8220;In the Praise of Folly&#8221; (and other satirical works).  In this work he ridicules the Roman Catholic church and takes them to task for all their moral failures.</p>
<p>Yet, Erasmus&#8217; attempt at Reform failed.  Why did it fail?  Because he sought only a moral reformation.  I see much of this desire for moral reformation in Miller.  This isn&#8217;t necessarily wrong but it is misguided.  It took Luther to see that reformation needed to begin with theology.  This is where Miller seems to miss the boat in my opinion.</p>
<p>And lastly, I would just like to challenge you to think about how Christ centered and gospel centered Miller&#8217;s work really is.  If he wants such a change - and change is needed - he seems to be barking up the wrong tree.  It is a Reformation of the gospel and of Christ in all his glory which the church so desperately needs.  Then moral reform will flow out of that theological reform.</p>
<p>I do truly apologize if my &#8220;parody&#8221; of Miller&#8217;s book offended you.  I don&#8217;t think it was wreckless because it was meant in jest (with some truth behind it), but nonetheless I believe Miller is the one who is really wreckless, because he has failed to see the heart of the problem which is the necessity for a reformation of gospel and Christ centered living.</p>
<p>Sean, I have been rather busy lately but I am planning on writing a more lengthy review of Miller&#8217;s work.  Hopefully within the next few weeks I will begin and I will provide support and justification for my reasoning.  If interested please check my blog in a few weeks or e-mail me at weturner777 - at - hotmail.com</p>
<p>wir sein pettler, hoc est meum&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/archives/40#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/?p=40#comment-70</guid>
		<description>Sean;

I appreciate your comments. It has not been my intention (nor do I think I've communicated) throwing Miller out with anything (including emergents). The other post repeatedly refers to how much I enjoy his writing style, etc., and I do think that he's much more helpful than someone like MccLaren.

Regardless of what happens in the "real world," I only have what Miller has in print and I'm not sure how he can be pictured as anything other than subjective. There is little to no interaction with Scripture, the book is written in journal format all about his own experiences from which he then draws conclusions.  

I certainly have not charged his work as "non-Christian" in anything I've written.  

I think Miller and others have a warmth and genuineness which has long been lacking in evangelical (particularly Reformed) cirlces, and we would do well to continue to read and listen. But I do also think that he has taken a large step in the direction of subjectivity.

We cannot allow that his destination is accurate if how he got there is wrong. Just because you come to the right conclusions through experience does not mean your conclusions are Scriptural and that's where I struggle with Miller's approach.I don't want us to fall into either the extreme of throwing him out or accepting everyting he says without checking him against Scripture. 

I would very much like to see him incorporate more Scripture into his meanderings because I do think that he has a lot of really helpful things to say, and I suppose, at the end of the day, that is my biggest worry.

Thanks again Sean!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean;</p>
<p>I appreciate your comments. It has not been my intention (nor do I think I&#8217;ve communicated) throwing Miller out with anything (including emergents). The other post repeatedly refers to how much I enjoy his writing style, etc., and I do think that he&#8217;s much more helpful than someone like MccLaren.</p>
<p>Regardless of what happens in the &#8220;real world,&#8221; I only have what Miller has in print and I&#8217;m not sure how he can be pictured as anything other than subjective. There is little to no interaction with Scripture, the book is written in journal format all about his own experiences from which he then draws conclusions.  </p>
<p>I certainly have not charged his work as &#8220;non-Christian&#8221; in anything I&#8217;ve written.  </p>
<p>I think Miller and others have a warmth and genuineness which has long been lacking in evangelical (particularly Reformed) cirlces, and we would do well to continue to read and listen. But I do also think that he has taken a large step in the direction of subjectivity.</p>
<p>We cannot allow that his destination is accurate if how he got there is wrong. Just because you come to the right conclusions through experience does not mean your conclusions are Scriptural and that&#8217;s where I struggle with Miller&#8217;s approach.I don&#8217;t want us to fall into either the extreme of throwing him out or accepting everyting he says without checking him against Scripture. </p>
<p>I would very much like to see him incorporate more Scripture into his meanderings because I do think that he has a lot of really helpful things to say, and I suppose, at the end of the day, that is my biggest worry.</p>
<p>Thanks again Sean!</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/archives/40#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/?p=40#comment-69</guid>
		<description>i sympathize with the frustration that miller has become the new pop (or maybe sub-pop) sensation in Christian circles, but i think throwing him out b/c of emergents is like, well we all know the cliche.  am i the only one that read miller's scathing critique of the emerging movement in Blue Like Jazz?  
honestly, the whole spirituality without truth approach falls apart within minutes of talking to most people who live in the real world.  talk to someone who says faith is all about the relational and not about the rational and you can win them over the second they start talking about tangibles like the love of God.  miller really isn't that subjective, and the charge that his work is "non-Christian" is wreckless in my humble estimation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i sympathize with the frustration that miller has become the new pop (or maybe sub-pop) sensation in Christian circles, but i think throwing him out b/c of emergents is like, well we all know the cliche.  am i the only one that read miller&#8217;s scathing critique of the emerging movement in Blue Like Jazz?<br />
honestly, the whole spirituality without truth approach falls apart within minutes of talking to most people who live in the real world.  talk to someone who says faith is all about the relational and not about the rational and you can win them over the second they start talking about tangibles like the love of God.  miller really isn&#8217;t that subjective, and the charge that his work is &#8220;non-Christian&#8221; is wreckless in my humble estimation.</p>
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		<title>By: William E. Turner Jr.</title>
		<link>http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/archives/40#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>William E. Turner Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/?p=40#comment-68</guid>
		<description>Miller's book I think would be better subtitled, "Non-Christian thoughts on Religious Spirituality."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miller&#8217;s book I think would be better subtitled, &#8220;Non-Christian thoughts on Religious Spirituality.&#8221;</p>
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