Speaking of Personal Preference…
In light of yesterday’s post about personal preference in worship style, doctrine and choosing a church, Gunny posted this video the other day that I just couldn’t help but pass along. I have not been this appalled in a LONG time:
This made my skin crawl.
Wow
WOAH!
A secular concert minus the weed. At least, I suppose so. It would have brought more glory to God if they had left His holy name out of it all together.
Ugh. I feel sick to my stomach now. Seriously.
What’s it called when worship is all emotion without truth? You know, the feely-good type thing?
Um, YEAH.
At first, I too was appalled. But then I realized the concept of God turning (or spinning) us around is very biblical. It’s a prominent metaphor for repentance and being reoriented to God’s reality. So, theologically, I don’t have a problem with this. And since they’re obviously having an ’80s themed event, why not do what the old hymnists did and co-opt popular tunes with redirected lyrics?
Resembles pagan worship to me, but then again, I have no idea what’s in the hearts of everyone there. It *could* be that some individuals are really trying to worship the Lord, while others are only being stirred up in their flesh by music that appeals to them sensually.
If only I could be convinced that he was intending to make a theological statement about repentance. Sadly, the “Docey Doe” and “Love Train” segments lead me to think otherwise, as does the conclusion “We love the Lordy” . . .
If Charles Finney were still alive, he would stand up in support of this. After all, these excitements, or “new measures,” prove very effective in helping “Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts” (http://gospeltruth.net/1836SOIS/01sois_sinners_bound.htm).
But I must confess that there, only for the grace of God, go I. Without all of the sophistication, that was me about 20 years ago, swapping “Holy, Holy” for “Mony, Mony” and I don’t even want to remember what we did for Van Halen’s “Jump” — all at youth retreats for a certain Bible Church in Phoenix.
But just because I’m in no position to condemn, doesn’t mean that personal preferences are valid for determining the practice of the worship of God. This is where older Reformed distinctions between circumstances, forms and elements of worship are helpful.
I actually wrote more about those three things, but I deleted it because this isn’t my blog, its yours. Just tossing in my two cents.
The worst and most revealing thing about this video was the suggestion that people should do something “as a sign that you are removing the things that separate you from the holy place…”
In his body and blood, Christ has entered the holy place once and for all, and we may do so with full confidence in his work, not anything we could do. Take a moment to read Hebrews 9 and 10 today for a blessing, for truly…
Oh come on, don’t you think God looks down and says, “O! I feel so honored! They like me as much as a rockstar likes his first wife!”
Seriously though, if God’s word does not regulate our worship, what could possibly be so bad about this? They are just offering God their own personal expressions of worship. How can we (or God) judge the intent of their hearts? Honestly (and I’m not trying to be mean), if The Agents of Future are right, then how is this wrong???
I am most sickened by the thought of the smell of the auditorium as hundreds of shoes and socks are being swung about! Now that is an offensive odor.
Personally, I’m more appalled by the album cover in your sidebar depicting 4 naked people jumping a fence than by the worship of this church.
I think God honors our worship regardless of the form it takes as long as the heart’s intent is correct.
Matt, are you serious? Really? You’re comparing the Agents of Future to this? Have you listened to the content of any of their songs? For example, as I randomly select one of their songs, here are the initial lyrics:
“Do not hide your face from me
Show me your Truth
Show me your Way
Show me your Face
The more I turn my eyes to you
The more I see
There is a name
There is a name above every name…”
Do you really compare this to “Jesus, you turn me right ’round, like a record baby…docey doe, get on the love train, we love the lordy…”?
At least be fair, please.
givemejesus:
Why are you appalled by that album cover? Would your reasons also apply to Botticelli, for instance, or any nude art, or is this just particularly appalling to you?
So something can pass as worship *no matter* what form it takes? So if I stay home from church and watch the NFL and in my heart feel it is worship then you cannot judge my worship?
Or, givemejesus, could you share what you think are biblical guidelines for worship? Not trying to pick a fight, but am really interested in your thoughts.
Thanks,
Moz
givemejesus,
If God “honors our worship regardless of the form it takes as long as the heart’s intent is correct” as you say, why did He strike down Nadab and Abihu (Leviticus 10:1-3)? Surely they had “sincere” hearts, did they not?
Is anything and everything allowed in “worship” as long as our “heart’s intent is correct?” If our heart’s intent is correct, will we even want anything and everything in “worship”?
Brent,
Sorry I didn’t make it more clear, but what I was getting at is, if God’s word does not regulate our worship (and I thought AoF made clear they do not think it does), then what’s the difference? Their argument came down to giving everyone a chance to give their *own* expression of worship to God, whatever form that might take. Seriously, though AoF are NOWHERE NEAR as bad as this, I don’t see the theological/philosophical difference. Call me simplistic, but either worship is for God, a biblically ordained and designed response to his word, or it is for us and our own needs of expressing ourselves, and in that case there can be no rules.
And the content of that song you mentioned is pretty good, but content is not the end-all for me (as I doubt it is for you). Honestly, with AoF I was more appalled by their arguments for what they do and how they defined and desribed worship and its purposes than I was with what they actually do. It wasn’t at all a biblical understanding of what worship is.
Sorry, I shouldn’t have opened that old can of worms. It just seems to me that many are content with some kind of continuum of what is acceptable in worship, this video you posted being obviously on the anathema end, while other approaches (like AoF) fall somewhere toward the other end. While I do believe the circumstances of worship are going to look different in different communities, I think the grounding principle for all Christian worship is that the elements of worship must be all and only that which the Bible prescribes. (As you mentioned above, Nadab and Abihu…)
(Again, I did not bring this up as an attack against Todd and Angie or the other AoF’s. I’d probably want them as great friends if we lived in the same town.)
Are you sure this isn’t the trailer for Jack Black’s next movie?
Looks more like a rock concert to me. I was somehow expecting some weed to be passed around towards the end…
Anyway, there’s also one church near our home where they have revised some songs from the Beatles and used them as hymns. Apalling indeed. It is heartbreaking to see some churches become like the world.
um…..NO! where is the awe and fear of God? We are standing on HOLY ground in the presence of the Sovereign Almighty and our demeanor should be humble, worshipful and repentant. “Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips!” Not join hands and start a love train! They may have absolutely been saved by the Holy One but there is nothing in what is seen to show they have been called out of this world into the kingdom of God. I do not comment on the condition of their hearts but the outward behavior seen here. When I face God I will be so thankful that He will not immediately strike me dead for my sins, certainly I will not be “Lordy! you make me dizzy and wanna shake my socks in the air.”
So Brent…you can say you’re appalled, but how do you explain this?
Forgery is a serious crime, Jim. A very serious crime. That’s hilarious!
What bothered me most was what WASN’T said. There are TEN minutes of video there - which is a really long time to dance around by the way!
In that ten minutes, what scripture did we hear cited? What song lyrics did we hear sung that reflected scripture or at least biblical truth - “God you are Holy,” “God you are Lord and King,” etc.? Where is the meat?
My spirit cringed because what we see in that video, without scripture, without truth, is… empty and incomplete. It IS possible to burst out in song and dance when your heart overflows in worship, but without Scripture and Truth to get you to that point –sadly, it’s just a bunch of dancing.
(Note: Perhaps one may argue that there was scripture read before or after, but in my experience, the worship time is usually cohesive with the teaching time. If you viewed only videos of our church singing during musical worship, you’d still have a pretty good idea what was being taught from the pulpit.)
Moz -
“and in my heart feel it is worship then you cannot judge my worship?”
This is really what was at the heart of my previous comment. Who am I…..who are you….who is Brent….that we should judge what is acceptable worship in the eyes of God? We don’t have to LIKE how others express their joy in the Lord but who are we to criticize?
While the NT pretty clearly defines elements of worship such as prayer, praise, thanksgiving, teaching, etc. it is silent when it comes to drawing up a specific model of worship. We only got a 10 minute snippet of this worship service so we really have no idea if all of the elements were present but it’s beside the point since the expression of disdain is about the model this church is using (and we don’t even know if this is a typical worship service). I’m not bothered that others find it appalling (though that seems like a pretty strong word), it’s the judgemental comments that smack of legalism that bother me. You can SAY that you are not judging the intent of the participants hearts but you are doing exactly that when you question the model of worship they choose to EXPRESS what is in their heart. Statments such as Teresa’s “I do not comment on the condition of their hearts but the outward behavior seen here” are a thinly veiled attempt to convince others (and maybe even yourself) that you are not judgmental.
As far as the album cover, I simply brought it up as an ironic counterpoint i.e. “I’m appalled by this church’s method of worship but have no problem placing a photo of naked people on my Christian blog” Would I be justified in dismissing this blog as heretical and of no spiritual value simply because I object to the album art posted here?
Brent - The Nadab/Abihu example is apples to oranges. They had just been given specific instruction on how to offer sacrifices and then either willingly or carelessly disrespected him with their “unauthorized fire”. Does scripture outline any models of unauthorized worship (other than worshipping false idols and such)? If not, I have no cause to be appalled if someone chooses to express their heartsong by waving their sock around to a bad 80’s song remix. I’ve been known to do some pretty strange things when I’m overcome by the joy of the Lord, too (I just don’t post them on Youtube!).
And, to those who found the use of “Lordy” a problem….really? Seriously? Are you not aware that the use of Lordy has been a staple in Negro spirituals and gospel hymns for decades? Sure, it sounds weird coming from a white dude with a faux-hawk but it’s not like it isn’t without precedent.
give,
erm, not sure where you got the idea that worship is all about expressing something “in our hearts”…
Holy Ghost Ho-Down! hahahaha! Well, anytime you WATCH worship it’s going to look strange.
It’s already been stated but worship is an act of the heart.
I think this was a bit whack but I think God can take our pathetic attempts at worship and reach people.
Come on everybody! Let’s have a Holy Ghost Ho-Down! WOOOOOO!
this is appalling. and scary to watch how manipulating it is as the audience is entertained.
Hey Matt,
I had to dig up that old thread about AotF where you were also discussing worship’s elements.
http://www.colossiansthreesixteen.com/archives/2195
In the comments, I referenced John Frame’s book “Worship in Spirit and Truth,” which you responded briefly to by saying you were aware of it and “don’t buy it.”
Have you read the book and interacted with its discussion of the regulative principle? I ask not to say that Frame is perfect, but imagine that it might be easy to dismiss another take on the regulative principle if you haven’t read it.
Some of your statements come across as very “broad brush” and there doesn’t seem to be an attempt to cite the Biblical basis for some of those assertions, such as a New Covenant order of worship or a teaching on the elements. Instead, one might infer from your comments that you believe the list of elements to be self-evident and all who disagree might as well be spinning their socks.
I don’t want to be boastful about it, brother. I’m just suggesting that you could bless and possibly persuade more people by opening up your biblical basis for others to see.
Jim,
Thanks for the encouragement to put down the roller and pick up a pen. That’s a great idea, and I know that one of my greatest internet faults is just that, painting too broad strokes when arguing a point. I guess I think about how my own journeys to a lot of positions (like the RPW) have been so long and sometimes painstaking that I think, “How could one ever give a full and convincing argument of these things in a blog comment?”
I was helped some by Frame’s book when I read it about 4-5 years ago. But since then I’ve had problems with some of it. For example, the way he talks about worship. To some extent, I agree that worship is all of life, but at the same time, I think the New Testament makes clear that corporate worship is a very different and special thing, and that it is driven (and even conducted/directed) by God. I’m kind of hazy though on Frame’s arguments, since I read it so long ago. I have found a couple other books to be much more helpful for me. “A Better Way,” by Michael Horton, and “Give Praise to God,” ed. Ryken et al.
If you have any desire to discuss this stuff, feel free to email me at matt_haeck [at] yahoo [dot] com.
Thanks again!
Matt
Matt, You’re totally right that the format of blogs makes it difficult to give the right treatment to some discussions. Glad to see that you’ve got Frame in your sack of stuff. I too, am thankful for Horton’s “A Better Way”. It’s a good reminder that sometimes we can conduct worship as if it’s for God’s sake, but somehow miss that he’s there and actively working. Thanks!
“It’s a good reminder that sometimes we can conduct worship as if it’s for God’s sake, but somehow miss that he’s there and actively working.”
Amen!
GMJ:
You say “We don’t have to LIKE how others express their joy in the Lord but who are we to criticize?” Surely you don’t mean this, man! We might dissagree on what critiria we should use to judge, but I assume you would say it is wrong to express joy in the Lord through drunkeness, for instance. You wouldn’t say Mormons have acceptable worship, right? So we do judge, by grace using wisdom and the Word to determine who are our brothers and sisters and who are, as Jesus warns, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Look, here is my issue. You are right that we do not have a step-by-step guide to worship in regards to music style, lighting, sound levels, tempo, etc. But, we know that the worship God accepts is that which draws attention to Him. After all, in worship, we are delighting in God. The video is just one experiance where a Christian worship service degenerates into a doctrineless pursuit of experience. The energy in the room doesn’t appear to be brokeness over sin or delight in the greatness of God, but rather, some fast music and basic dancing instructions. If a youthgroup wants to have a hoe-down, go for it, but don’t try to baptize Dope (the artist), add “Jesus” in place of “baby”, and call it worship.
So bro, I am not dogging any music style or being legalistic. I just took a guy to a Lecrae (rap) concert and think it was a great way to promote the Gospel. Here me say: I too hate legalism! I do not know their hearts, you are right. But we judge actions, as in Matthew 17 or Paul’s rebuking Peter in Galatians 2, for instance. We can judge actions and doctrine or the lack thereof and we can use wisdom to discern the trend twords experiance based youth ministry apart from sound doctrine.
I think those of us who are against this video are against the emphasis on experiance apart from doctrine that would direct us to God. I could be wrong, so I will leave it at that.
Peace,
Moz
is this at a particular church? is this dude a worship leader at the church or is this just some type of concert?
It is here: http://theramp.org