Thanks for the review. I’m tempted to wait and get the CD when our youth minister is done with his. Or when they put it out for free.

Its apparent, reading your review, that you sit comfortably in the Christian music mainstream. While there is nothing, inherently, wrong with that, I wonder if Derek’s voice and intent just isn’t lost somewhere between the CD packaging and your ears.

In my opinion, he’s speaking to issues that concern MANY people in our country. His voice is one that should be heard by many and does have an impact. Poverty and pacifism are issues that concern him and MANY Christians in this country (and, frankly, should concern more).

And while I appreciate your concern that he’s “beating a dead horse” I am struck that the one song which runs away from the politics and social justice is the one that you decried the most. And it just so happens to be my favorite song. I Wanna Marry You All Over Again is a fun, honest love song from an artist to his wife. And to say that he needs to use “discretion” when mentioning that he and his (now) wife read the Bible together and then “made out” is a bit over the line IMO. Moreover, if Derek’s anything, he’s honest….I wouldn’t expect him to censor himself anyways, but if “making out” is the worse that they did, then I guess I’m ok with that.

Mr. Kummer….go to http://www.theringingbell.com and you can listen to the entire record for free right now.

I’ve pretty much given up on “Christian Music,” although I was very in to it for a very long time.

I’ve still not heard much of Webb, as a result, but I have seen his lyrics and they are quite appealing to me. Seems like he’s right on, of the lyrics I’ve read.

Martin,

That’s interesting that because I dislike some of Webb’s comments�you would automatically say I “sit comfortably in the Christian music mainstream.” I think you’re the first person who has ever called my listening “mainstream.” But that’s exactly part of the problem I have with Webb’s approach. If you disagree then you’re part of the “establishment.” I really listen to nothing “mainstream” but the fact that such was your conclusion really interests me.

As for the reference to “making out,” it’s not that that bothers me. Make out with your wife all you want, but they weren’t married at the time. It’s also that it appears in the context of “accidentally” staying over all night and courting his wife on someone else’s money. These are hardly actions I’d condone, do you?

Its apparent, reading your review, that you sit comfortably in the Christian music mainstream.

That one was good for a chuckle. (Brent, will you be naming your next child Carman?)

Seriously, for all the emphasis on Webb as being outside the mainstream, it seems to me that he’s in the exact same artistic boat with CCM: message first, art second. If music was an ice cream dispenser, Webb would be the chocolate-vanilla swirl spout picking a fight with the vanilla-only spout (CCM). Big whoop, it’s all still soft-serve.

I’ve gleaned some value from his songs. I listen to the reminders that Jesus was not a yuppie Republican and think, “OK, good reminder, I agree.” and then I move on to other music. I just don’t find it to be an enduring message. Instead it seems like he’s having political arguments with straw men, and ones that aren’t even relevant to the current political field. Rather than being truly humbling, my bet is that there’s a larger risk of the song backfiring. Rather than being challenging all of us, my guess is that a good number of people will use the song as a source of pride, “Yeah, I’m not a greedy yuppie or Republican! Take that, Religious Right!” If we’re going there, we’re not any better off because we’re still not drawing any closer to Christ. We’re just exchanging one political idol for another.

Also, the retro brit-pop production sounds very gimmicky. I don’t believe the songwriting is very strong either. For an example of brit-pop done well, I’d point to Summershine by Vigilantes of Love. Its lyrics interest me more, too.

Jim, I agree. That was pretty funny! If you know Brent at all, if you’ve lived with him as long as I have, I think that “mainstream” is about the FARTHEST word I would use to describe him. :)� In fact, there are times where I PRAY for more mainstream around here! :)

heh….I don’t have the benefit of knowing anyone around here. I was referring to your disdain (I think its fair to call it that) for DW singing about sin in his album. Why is it necessary for artists (Christian or otherwise) to allow you to keep yourself and others in a protective bubble where people don’t “make out” before they are married. After all you praise the album that contains songs like Crooked Deep Down and lines like “Brother I’m the Chief.” After all, we do sin all the time don’t we? Additionally, I don’t think that DW is condoning it……he’s telling you about his experiences.

To the other comments here about DW taking the banner for the left and creating idols of his own….I heard him speak about the intended message of this album and its not vanilla or “swirl.” He’s writing about peace. He’s writing about turning the other cheek. These issues aren’t controversial or new, but they have been forgotten by a lot of people who worship the Prince of Peace. That, I believe, is his point. And I think your “straw men” are actually the people making the decisions in our country right now. And, in my opinion, they are far from non-existent.

Martin

Again you take quite a bit for granted. I have no disdain for singing about sin. I think “Wedding Dress” is an incredible song. But that song approaches sin from a much different angle than does this song that we’re talking about. Sometimes it’s simply not edifying to relate your past sins to everyone. It’s like the high school student who hears the “testimony” about the guy who did so much cocaine and then got saved leaving thinking “now I can go do some cocaine and then get saved.” If you don’t think people actually think that way you’ve not been in church life very long.

I believe that “Christian” artists should address all of life through the lens of the Gospel (please read here and here among other posts) but Webb has continually proven that he lacks discretion for the weaker brother (comparing kisses to an addicts fix, saying love is better than wine and now these comments). It’s certainly not that we create a bubble, but let’s face it, do we really need to be encouraging our unmarried friends to go “make out?” Am I living in a bubble because I think that’s inappropriate, or am I seeking to say only that which is edifying (Ephesians 4:29)?

I see what Brent’s saying about the make out comment. Christians should be advised to take sin seriously and not to put themselves in situations that open the door to sexual sin. Spending all night alone together for some Bible-reading and making out is a foolish, foolish thing unmarried couples to do. If you’re a Christian who has put yourself in this compromising position (which nearly always leads to sexual sin), you are most likely to look back at that behavior with deep regret, not reminiscence and a desire to relive it. That�s where Webb�s vagueness is dangerous, leading other Christian young adults to throw off the counsel of mature believers and pull over with their significant others because two Christian artists did it and they wish they could relive those times.

sorry… typo. In that last sentence I meant “pull overnighters”, not “pull over”.

Brent,
For starters, Derek didn’t say ‘love is better than wine,’ Song of Solomon did (surprised you didn’t realized that). And second, all of the little bits of his story that are listed in ‘I Wanna Marry You All Over Again’ (which I LOVE by the way) aren’t necessarily all happening the same night. From what I know, it all happened over many months. That to say, how do you know that the ‘accidentally staying all night,’ the ‘reading of the bible,’ and the ‘making out’ all happened at once?? I think you are dangerously putting words in Webb’s mouth here. He’s just tell his story honestly (which is more that you can say for most CCM music). And he has certainly acclimated his audience to more mature themes (I doubt a bunch of youth group kids sit around listening to Derek Webb…), so I guess I just really don’t understand your point in ANY of this.

Or since you’ve like his music less and less with each album, have you thought that MAYBE his music just ISN’T FOR YOU? I’d be careful not to make a new law for people yourself brother…

Thanks for your thoughts Bob. I do realize the Song of Solomon allusion but my point was that when placed in the context of some of Webb’s other allusions, (junkies and fixes, etc.) it loses any biblical appeal.

The point of my concerns with Webb’s song is not the chronology and I don’t feel that I ever made that the point so I’ll refrain from commenting about your charge of putting words in Webb’s mouth. If anything, I’m trying to analyze the words that did come out of his mouth.

Regardless of the chronology, “accidentally” staying over all night and spending someone else’s money are simply inappropriate and we ought not pretend that sin is somehow cute because it was in the midst of a romance. In the midst of all of the support for Webb, I’ve yet to read a valid explanation of why those things are either acceptable or artistic or should be defended at all.

For all of Webb’s emphasis on public morality, I would think that this would also lead to personal holiness which is why I find these lyrics so troubling.

I think you do understand my point because you yourself say that Webb’s music isn’t for me. That is my point and I’ve simply been explaining why and what personal concerns are driving me to that conclusion.

I’m a having some difficulty understanding why expressing concerns about the content of some of Derek Webb’s songs is creating a “new law” for anyone. Perhaps you could elaborate on that a bit? If anything, as I’ve already alluded to, I feel as though I’m going back to the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) in which we seek to speak only that which is good for edification (Ephesians 4:29).

I’m certainly open to listen. After all, that’s part of why I write a blog in the first place.

Hey Bob, maybe you’re right about them being separate events in that song. Would you not agree that it is a bit ambiguous, so that a listener could easily infer that they’re related?

Neither Brent or I have held Webb up as the “worst of the worst”, so there’s no need for anyone to be offended. We’re just trying to bring some discernment. If you don’t agree, that’s cool. I wouldn’t figure that Webb sees himself as beyond music/lyrical criticism, so neither should you. Note how Brent mixes praise and criticism here:

Yes, Webb�s lyrics often touch on sensitive and thought-provoking subjects, and for that he can be commended, but he clearly has specific themes he works with and by default, an agenda. If anything, I find his lyrics far more preachy than conversational.

Brent’s not using “agenda” in a perjorative way. He’s just taking issue with Christianity Today’s bizzare assertion that,

Rather than recite timeless scriptural truth, he asks listeners to use God�s Word in examining current events. More importantly, he does so without pushing an agenda…

Thoughtful response.

I’ll just say one more thing. Derek Webb has consistently communicated that he is not in the business of full-time vocational ministry with his music, but rather in the business of being an excellent artist. There’s a huge difference (even on the side of the listener). That to say, he’s an ARTIST. That’s his job. And he’s doing it well, regardless of what additional standards his fans hold him to that are beyond his realm of intention.

And that said, everyone needs to GET A SENSE OF HUMOR. Some of these songs are written tongue and cheek, and are meant to be taken lightly. It’s just a story. It’s art. Have fun and enjoy it (if you can). And if you can’t, then at least let the rest of us. :)

The topic of honesty has come up several times, but I think with a degree of confusion. Let me make a somewhat huristic distinction between honesty and truthfulness. The former is the ability to “tell it like it is” and the latter is the ability to wisely convey truth (i.e. actual states of affairs). Christian art must be truthful by its use of sound judgement or discernment. It is this latter aspect which is sometimes lacking in Webb’s lyric. It is certainly true that Jesus isnt a republican, but this is trivially true and lacks wisdom insofar as the statement itself ascribes a vacuous belief to no one group specifically. It may be true that Webb wants to re-live pre-marital make-out sessions, but is that a wise sentiment to braodly convey to an audience consistig of single brothers and sisters presumably fighting for purity? Probably not.

So there’s that, but also, the album itself just lacks originality. Didn’t PFR make that same album (Them) back in ‘96? I think the guitar licks and vocal are flat. There just isnt much variation, risk, or surprise. Predictable. Pay but no payoff.

Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-verse-bridge. Yawn.

More power to DW for deciding not to label his music as “ministry” and play by the CCM rules. I really admire what he did by giving away Mockingbird and asking people to donate to charity, showing real leadership as a musician who’s a Christian in the internet age. I feel bad for the guy though, because I predict that many people won’t buy this release simply because they expect him to do it again! Or just as bad, some people may think that the Mockingbird gift means that they can pirate his stuff because it’s supposedly OK with DW.

Bob said: “he’s an ARTIST. That’s his job. And he’s doing it well…”

I would venture to say that an artist’s job is not only to sing well and entertain but to communicate what he wants to say effectively. A Christian artist should strive to communicate a message using scripture as a filter. As a listener, we have to assume the artist meant what he said and said what he meant. If he meant something else, we could at best give the artist the benefit of the doubt, otherwise we’d be putting words into his mouth.

Having said that, too much ambiguity would be my biggest complaint about “The Ringing Bell.” I have no idea what “The End,” and “The Very End” are talking about. I get the topic of “Name” and “I Don’t Want To Fight,” but I don’t really get what Webb is actually trying to say about it. Considering that is almost half of the songs on the album, what does that say about his songwriting?

I get the argument that good songs don’t have to spell everything out, or avoid hard subjects, but you still have to use good songwriting when you do it if you want listeners to keep listening to your songs to hear your message. As a songwriter, my main concern is making sure that I communicate what I really wish to say, and making sure that it doesn’t seem to contradict the bible in anyway that would lead a listener away from its truths. For example, in a song “Humble,” I write “I confess I often fail, my sinner’s heart at times prevails, You intercede on my behalf, and then I make a golden calf. How could you, the Holy One, love someone like me? I must cause you so much pain with my adultery.” As I wrote it, the biggest thing I struggled to make clear as I attempted to convey heartfelt sorrow and repentance in the face of depravity and spiritual adultery, was to make sure that the lyrics in no way communicated a marital adultery.

By contrast, Webb’s “Can’t Be Without You” leaves me confounded and perplexed. I read through the lyrics many times, trying to figure out if the “you” could in any way represent his wife or God. Unless his wife has been remarried and he’s singing this song about her, I see no way around the fact that this song comes across as covetous and adulterous. Lines such as “I�m not scared to look into your eyes even with him standing right beside you,” and “I�m not ashamed to tell you how I feel, that�s not a crime even in Nashville” lend an unrepentant feeling to the lyrics as well. I’m not sure what Webb meant, but I know that the lyrics are misleading and not uplifting or edifying, or imparting some truth about God, or even conveying a personal testimony of change and forgiveness.

It’s not wrong that Webb tries to address tough issues, but clearly there is confusion about what he is trying to say - there are sixteen comments here to prove it. :)

Brent - I see where you are coming from, but I will say this also.. it is often difficult to communicate big thoughts with 4 musical lines that match in rhyme and meter. Often it doesn’t come out right or big pieces of the story are missing. With “I Wanna Marry You All Over Again,” I think that’s just a bad case of a song with good intent but poor songwriting. It’s almost romantic — with him saying that he loves her enough to do it all over again, even the good and the bad — but he probably could have communicated that a little more effectively, don’t you think?

Good grief, I went and wrote a mini-novel. I’m trying to get better at summarizing - honest. :)

Ok I can’t resist posting one last time. I consider myself to be a serious fan of Derek’s music and career (not blindly, but because he continues to make relevant and challenging art) and I think I’ve reached the conclusion that some of you just don’t understand Derek or his art on a really core level. And that’s ok. Not everyone does. It doesn’t make you not ‘cool’ or ‘out of touch’ or whatever if you don’t. But regardless, you don’t.

In terms of the songs not being written well or an artist saying what they mean, I can say this. I think Derek knows exactly what he was saying and specifically why he said it the way he did. I don’t think it’s bad writing at all (I think it’s brilliant, in fact). And I think the brilliance of his writing combined with people’s lack of understanding of some of it is why there are so many comments here, not because he failed to communicate anything…

I mean, some of my favorite music has REALLY abstract lyrics. Radiohead lyrics are VERY cryptic. Some U2 songs are the same way. Now that I think about it, MOST of the music I love I don’t totally understand. And that’s what makes it ART. It doesn’t always totally explain itself to you. And that’s not it’s job. We’re just so used to ‘pop’ music and ‘pop’ artists that we don’t think about art anymore.

Lastly, I feel like I can answer a question about the song ‘Can’t Be Without You.’ Derek has been clearly documented as saying that he wrote that song back when he was writing for the ‘Long Line Of Leavers’ record with Caedmon’s Call. It IS about his wife, who was casually dating someone when they first met. The song never fit on a record until he was recording ‘The Ringing Bell,’ which it fit perfectly on. So he recorded it. Next time you accuse an artist of coming “across as covetous and adulterous,” “misleading and not uplifting or edifying” and “unrepentant,” do a little research brother…

That is all.

I’ve only heard a few of Webb’s songs,(thanks to Pastor Brent’s blog), but it sounds as though Webb’s lyrics are a bit ham-fisted, politically and socially, (which can be fun at times, particularly when one agrees now and then, but can get old quickly). I remember Steve Taylor’s overtly didactic lyrics, (socially and politically) in the 80’s, and I thought his music was fun, but now think that artists who work in this direction are certain to be too soon put away in an accordian file, like last year’s receipts. Do any of you remember Steve Taylor, by the way? Is my reference too out of date? Talented guy. Everybody must get cloned!

Thanks for your thoughts Bob and your obvious love for Webb’s music. You ought to know that one last comment always breeds one last reply!

I have to express concern at your dismissal of criticism as people (me) simply “not getting it.” You have no way of knowing this, but I’m writing to you on a computer with thousands of songs on it and I’m sitting next to hundreds of physical CDs. That simply to say that I’m not a casual music fan (you can always see what I hear here). I think much about the music I listen to and I listen to much music, therefore I think much about music (or I wouldn’t be writing about Derek Webb in the first place).

I think it’s only right that you give people who disagree the benefit of the doubt. Is it possible, just possible, that I do get it? I’m not brilliant by any means, but I’d like to think that I’m bright enough to understand Derek Webb’s music and message. I’d like to ask that you not simply dismiss criticism with a swipe of the “oh you just don’t get it” hand because I’m fairly sure that I do get it and simply don’t agree.

I loved Steve Taylor! I remember lying on the grass in my parent’s front yard with a stereo right next to my head playing those old blue cassettes! Thanks for that memory!

proverbs31– it seems that you have been taught the art-as-tool view, which limits creativity in art to its practical usefulness. I would recommend the book “Imagine: A Vision For Christians In The Arts” by Steve Turner to you to gain a fuller, more biblical perspective.

Feaster– Are you kidding me? PFR didn’t make this album, The Beatles did. It was called “Revolver,” and it came out in 1966.

Brent– I think some of the accusations of you not “getting it” stem from your insistence that Derek must measure every phrase he writes by how it might cause a stranger to somehow stumble. That would be a crushing burden to place on any artist (i.e. to ask them to consider every possible reaction to their art). In that sense, you don’t seem to “get” an aspect of an artist’s calling that is different from a pastor’s calling.

P.S. As far as the “record label’s dime” line is concerned– I don’t have time to explain how record deals work, but the long and short is that he was not stealing from the record label, but from his own potential future earnings.

I agree that Turner’s book is quite helpful but not on this issue. I’m interested in this concept that “artists” are free from Scripture’s charge not to make others stumble. It seems to me that the principles of Ephesians 4:29 and Romans 14:13-21 (just to name two) are not vocational issues but salvation issues. The charge not to make others stubmle is not Pastor-specific but Christian-specific. In other words, it applies to all Christians, including “artists.” All Christians are to consider others as more significant than themselves (Philippians 2:3), regardless of vocation. If you can show me the exception from artists because it’s a “crushing blow,” then I’m more than willing to listen. Otherwise, it seems that this is in fact why the Gospel is such a “crushing burden” to the world’s order as we know it.

You’re right in that I don’t understand how being an “artist” frees someone from Scripture’s demands. Being or not being a pastor has nothing to do with it. Being a Christian has everything to do with it. If Paul was willing to not eat meat so that people didn’t stumble, the least we can expect “artists” to do is use a little discretion in their lyrics.

“Do any of you remember Steve Taylor, by the way?”

I, too, LOVED Steve Taylor. “Meltdown, at Madame Tussaud’s, The Queen is losing Face!…”

Or Hero?

Hero
it’s a nice-boy notion that the real world’s gonna destroy
you know
it’s a Marvel comicbook Saturday matinee fairytale, boy

Growing older you’ll find that illusions are brought
and the idol you thought you’d be was just another zero
I wanna be a hero…

I was/am a huge Steve Taylor fan. Had/have everything he put out as a single artist (blue cassettes!). I was even a member of the Clone Club. Were you? ;)

wowww - I’m going to have to politely disagree. Brent’s response is much like my own. My concern for my music stems from the care I take everywhere else in my life. I take care with conversation that I say what I mean and mean what I say. I am open with the fact of my sin but concerned with not accidentally giving false impressions about disregard or dismissal of it. I take care to avoid appearance of dishonesty, I go to great lengths to avoid the appearance of infidelity in my marriage, and I make it a priority to always put God first and point everything to Christ - so why would I do anything different with my music? Yes, music can entertain, it doesn’t always have to be happy, it can talk about hard things, but for me you can’t avoid scripture in life so if music is about life then you should find scripture there, too.

The scriptures that Brent cited were also the ones that I was thinking of. I appreciate what Webb is trying to say and all the work that he put into it, but for me, I choose not to make controversial statements in my music that might seem misleading, but rather I prefer my music to speak truths - whether the tone is joyful or sorrowful or doubtful or confident. My obligation as a Christian supersedes my obligation as an ‘artist.’

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable�if anything is excellent or praiseworthy�think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me�put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.” Phil. 4:8-9

Man, I missed a ton of fun in these comments.

First off, I have to echo a statement that I’ve heard Derek say many times (and others have said it too)….there should be NO Christian artists….there should be NO Christian art. A song CANNOT be Christian and neither can a CD (though we might hear the song in heaven and see the CD, they didn’t earn their way there).

Having said that, too much ambiguity would be my biggest complaint about �The Ringing Bell.� I have no idea what �The End,� and �The Very End� are talking about. I get the topic of �Name� and �I Don�t Want To Fight,� but I don�t really get what Webb is actually trying to say about it. Considering that is almost half of the songs on the album, what does that say about his songwriting?

This is quite humorous to me b/c I struggled with the first two songs on the disc for a while…my first response would be to keep digging. I think that we have bounced around a good number of ideas over at the DW.com message boards and have come up with some good theories of both. Name is a song about shedding labels and names (such as Christian) to get to a deeper understanding. I think its written from the perspective of Jesus talking to his bride. And I don’t want to fight is well, a song about how Derek doesn’t want to fight.

So there�s that, but also, the album itself just lacks originality. Didn�t PFR make that same album (Them) back in �96? I think the guitar licks and vocal are flat. There just isnt much variation, risk, or surprise. Predictable. Pay but no payoff.

Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-verse-bridge. Yawn.

OK, this is just about the most ridiculous thing written in this thread….did you actually listen to this album? He starts off with a sonogram of his child’s heartbeat….sings about peace and how discourse has broken down….then sings about his coming child….then sings about loving others and turning the other cheek….then sings about courting his wife….then sings about his personal battles with anger….then sings about fighting labels and creating nuance in our communication….then sings another song about courting his wife (slaps DW for being SO repetitive)…then sings about torture…then sings about unrealistic expectations put upon our political representatives…then sings about how God will make all things right….

Now…none of that seems “repetitive” except where noted. Also, by my count only half of the songs even have a chorus. so you’re Kurt Cobainesque complaint about chorus verse chorus walks about as far as Kurt himself. I’d also be remiss if I didn’t point out that for a “rock” record there is a ton of variation in the music itself.

Also, I could echo someone’s comments above about DW’s sense of humor and how he shouldn’t have to be “supportive” in every song he writes….but other people said it better.

Martin

Martin,

I was referring to the music being playyyyeeedddd ooouuuuuttttt, not the message.

Did I even listen to the album? I listened to four songs. I would have kept going, but I fell asleep. Your comment is fair enough. Let me get an espresso and listen to the rest of it.

Also, I never liked Nirvana.

Martin, the idea of “Christian” artists is not really the point here (I’ve commented some on these issues here and here). Rather the issue is one of all Christians being called to edify and avoid unnecessary stumbling blocks regardless of their vocation.

I choose not to make controversial statements in my music that might seem misleading, but rather I prefer my music to speak truths - whether the tone is joyful or sorrowful or doubtful or confident. My obligation as a Christian supersedes my obligation as an �artist.�

Jesus said “I am a door,” “I am a vine,” and “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood.” These statements were both controversial and misunderstood by even Jesus’ closest followers (and continue to be debated even to this day). And not because Jesus didn’t know what he was saying or how he was saying it (in other words, if Jesus’ comments were put on a blog, there would be a LOT of comments about them… And again, not because he didn’t know what he was doing, but for precisely the opposite reason). In fact, there were moments when Jesus said he MEANT to say things in a way that all wouldn’t understand. So there is clearly a moment and a precedent to use such language to stir people.

Could Jesus have said these things more clearly? Could he have done it in a way that wouldn’t have caused so much confusion? I’ll leave those as rhetorical questions… :)

So what was your concern about “christian obligation”?

Wow. There’s quite the…um…discussion going on here. I was planning on getting on and decrying Brent for being so stodgy that he hates making out. But I now I see…we’re way past that, heheh.

Let me say this, I thought it was awesome that DW gave Mockingbird away. I’m a firm believer in the jacked-up-ness of the way our country does IP laws and anything anybody, especially an artist, can legally do to subvert those laws is a good thing in my book, nevermind the very biblical concepts of generosity, etc.

Unfortunately, I thought I got about what I paid for in Mockingbird. I thought the songs were way too Pete Seeger and not nearly Bob Dylan enough. Or more simply put: way too much agenda, and not nearly enough art. I like what Derek Webb has to say. But I think he needs to (re?)learn a lesson or two about making art.

I haven’t listened to his new album, so I can’t comment directly on that.

What I CAN say is this:

1. I think most artists who feel as strongly as DW does about these sorts of things need to make the kind of crappy art/propaganda that DW is making right now. They need to get it out, and I can’t fault anybody for that.

2. You can fault him, however, for releasing it publically. This is the kind of stuff you’ve got to get out of the way so you can make really good art instead of propaganda.

3. I think the lines quoted from that song about his wife are funny, mostly b/c they ARE so honest. Who didn’t feel like in college about their girlfriend? I think we need to ask ourselves which is more Godly–an appearance of righteousness or honesty. It seems to me (again, never having heard the song in its entirety) that the tension between reading the Bible and making out isn’t supposed to be cute. It’s supposed to conjure up the tension of those days, which were so romantic. If I had written those lines, I wouldn’t want you to feel completely comfortable about those things. But I’d want you to remember how it felt to be in love like that.

4. I’ve got to respectfully disagree with proverbs31’s theory of songwriting, which seems to be centered around clarity. I’m with Bob on this one–tension, a purposeful unclarity of message, violation of the apparent status quo, these are all artistic techniques that I think we inappropriately pit against not ‘leading listeners away from [Biblical] truths.’

5. Bob, I think you’ve overreacting a little bit. Brent’s no cultural dummy, but he’s not a bad blogger either. You’re obviously pretty emotionally invested in DW, which I understand (if Brent start calling Wilco the devil, there’d be words for sure, heheh). And while he comes from a point of view that I often disagree with, his ideas are consistently challenging. I think we need to take voices that often disagree with pretty seriously and let them challenge us.

I’ll second the recommendation of: �Imagine: A Vision For Christians In The Arts� by Steve Turner.

I wrote a review of it and Turner does address these struggles that are unique to the Christian artist, like how to present sin without endorsing it.

I was referring to the music being playyyyeeedddd ooouuuuuttttt, not the message.

Did I even listen to the album? I listened to four songs. I would have kept going, but I fell asleep. Your comment is fair enough. Let me get an espresso and listen to the rest of it.

First off, its usually a good idea to actually listen to a CD before you come onto some site and comment about it.

Second, based on the tone of your statement…I think you should pay special attention to the second verse of the first song. As that’s kind of the point of the whole album.

Martin, the idea of �Christian� artists is not really the point here (I�ve commented some on these issues here and here). Rather the issue is one of all Christians being called to edify and avoid unnecessary stumbling blocks regardless of their vocation.

Not to be oppositional, but I think that this is exactly the point. Similar comments have been made all over this comment thread. And I guess I just have to call it the overreaction that I think it is. Some (I’m not counting myself as one) might call the discourse in this comment thread overly aggressive and rude. Does that mean that your post “encouraged those that might struggle” with these issues?

Just a thought,

Martin

I certainly apologize if I have been “overly aggressive” and/or “rude” in any way. That is certainly not my intention and for those whom I know that have commented, I’m fairly certain that I speak for them as well.

If anything though, I must say that I’ve felt more of that coming from those defending Webb. After all, I’ve not accused anyone of not “getting it” or of being too “mainstream.”

Question: What exactly do you think is implied in the line “I wanna court you on the record label’s dime”?

2nd Question: Who hasn’t accidently stayed all night? You’re hangin’ out with friends, you get a little too much caffeine flowin’, and all of a sudden somebody says, “Hey, y’all wanna watch that new Vin Diesel movie?” Next thing ya know, you wake up at four in the mornin’ to a blue screen with someone drooling on you. Totally innocent!

I certainly apologize if I have been �overly aggressive� and/or �rude� in any way. That is certainly not my intention and for those whom I know that have commented, I�m fairly certain that I speak for them as well.

If anything though, I must say that I�ve felt more of that coming from those defending Webb. After all, I�ve not accused anyone of not �getting it� or of being too �mainstream.�

heh. It wasn’t my intent to point fingers in any direction (I understand that in order to point one finger at others I have to point four at myself)….only to make the point that if that was going on….are you responsible since you posted initially?

I don’t think truth has to be told in overtly black and white, straightforward terms. But I do think that truth needs to be told. That’s what I love about She Must and Shall Go Free: I’m confronted with the gospel in many different ways, pictures, and metaphors. But I’m nonetheless confronted with the timeless truth of the gospel.

In Mockingbird, there seems to be less confrontation with truth and more “here’s what I think about ______. Talk amongst yourselves.”

Truth that’s cryptic or poetic or thought-provoking is still truth. To me, DW seems to be more interesting in generating conversation than its content. That’s fine, I suppose, but when he’s obviously able to convey truth very powerfully and skillfully, it’s disappointing when he appears to be getting away from that.

(Thanks for letting me in on the conversation.)

well said, Steven.

well said.

Alright…I’ll chime in. I’m coming into this a bit late in the conversation, but I think it’s a worthy one to have. After all, I kept thinking of this warning from Jesus in Matthew 18 as I had a chance to listen through Derek Webb’s latest release:

“5 �Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, [1] it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”

While I certainly do not mean to apply this to DW personally, (I don’t think I’d wish that sort of death on anyone) the point remains that we all have a certain realm of influence of which we must be wise and careful stewards. Just as DW’s ministry in the past (thinking back to Caedmon’s Call and the early solo days moreso) has had a profound positive impact on my life, and many others, I too mostly agree with Brent. This album lacks wisdom when it comes to the influential (which could be seen as leadership) position that DW definitely stands in.

I’m also concerned about the reactionary mindset that can quickly takeover when we find a deficiency within the church. For example, I too share the concern for the Church’s lack of honesty and openness with one another concerning personal sin…the lack of confession and vulnerability during my younger years in church. However, the answer to that is not for me to stand in front of a large audience and broadcast examples - especially in a vague or flippant way. That just creates another problem. Brothers, be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Being reactionary is not wise. “By long forbearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft tongue breaketh the bone” (Proverbs 25:15). Instead of being reactionary when we recognize a problem, we should look for ways to be constructive in changing things. I think there is some reactionary thinking that has turned into a campaign over these last few albums. When I say that we should be less reactionary and excercise more discernment, I’m not referring to any comments on this thread, or even Brent’s initial post, but rather this general concern I have for our generation of Christians as we continue to wade our way through this stuff in light of Scripture.

I just got the new Paste magazine in the mail yesterday, and they gave it a 5 star review (out of 5). 5 star reviews are fairly rare in Paste, and their overwhelming praise of the album made me almost relieved to see this thread today.

Between that and all this discussion, I feel that I must take a listen for myself. Thanks to Martin for the link to listen for free. I’ll do just that.

Concerning Webb, I liked “She Must and Shall Go Free” a lot. It wasn’t perfect, but a really good album that gave me the feeling that I was listening to something important. I missed “Upside Down,” so I can’t speak for that one, but I loved a lot of the spirit behind “Mockingbird”, but it too often slid into “overly didactic lyrics”, but I, for the most part, gave it the benefit of the doubt.

It’s so good to wrestle with these issues and ask these questions. Bravo.

Man, I can’t escape this thread, mostly b/c it’s really making me think through this idea about how responsible a artist who’s a Christian needs to be with their lyrics regarding making people stumble.

Let me say this. Again, I haven’t listend to the album yet (it’s on the list, trust me). I don’t feel like any Derek Webb’s solo stuff has been youth group material. His themes are relatively mature (regardless of how you feel about him, his lyrics or the music, hehehe).

I have a hard time believing that ANYBODY who listens to The Ringing Bell is immature enough to be led astray by it. I think as an artist, you have to be able to honestly handle and present things that are in gray areas. If you have edit (censor?) your work so that you never present anything that any one could misinterpret as permission to have unwed sex, you’re chopping a lot of the beautiful things that God gave us about marriage.

I understand the concern that people are expressing here, but I think the rules ARE different for art, because the method of communication is so different. There is a time for clarity and for being very clearly about what you’re implying. This is what essays are for. And sermons, perhaps.

But art (fiction, poetry, music) purposefully incorporates ambiguity. One of music and poetry’s strongest suits is the multiplicity of possible interpretations, which in turn provides depth of meaning.

Because artistic communication operates on a different plane than normal communication, I think the rules, so to speak, about making people stumble ARE different. Ambiguity is one of art’s greatest tools. When we reject it because we’re afraid we might make someone stumble, I think we reject one of the strengths God has given us.

There’s some questions I still haven’t worked through in mind about how appropriate particular themes and works of art are for people. Maybe a different day.

I had to skip through about 2/3 of these comments…too many people saying the same ignorant things over and over.

Jake T,

Thank you! Great points.

Brent,

I’m just curious, are you a teetotaler?

Everyone else, I’m curious who actually knows Derek and has talked to him about these things. Have you even been to a show? What do you know about his theology, church, etc.? (BTW, that last question was somewhat rhetorical; I do know a fair bit about these things)

Matt, you are certainly welcome to comment, and disagree for that matter, but when you introduce yourself by off-handedly wiping away the comments of disagreeing brothers and sisters as “ignorant,” you’ve not set a good tone for yourself. Please show respect to those who disagree (Matthew 7:12, Philippians 2:3, etc.). It really is the least you can do.

I have seen Webb live more than once. I have heard him explain his theology. I’ve watched his DVD, read and listened to his interviews and generally followed his career and thoughts. There’s a troubling attitude here that if someone disagrees it’s because they don’t understand. It’s akin to N.T. Wright telling top NT scholars that they don’t fully understand his position. Why it’s not possible to understand and disagree is beyond me.

No, I’m not a teetotaler (see here and elsewhere) and I find it extremely interesting that you would ask that question. Would you mind explaining your rationale? It seems to me to be a case of assuming certain things about those who disagree and a slightly veiled ad hominem attack, but I don’t want to read anything into your comments, so I’d love for you to explain if you don’t mind.

[...] * Brent Thomas reviews Derek Webb’s latest release The Ringing Bell.� [...]

Brent,

I apologize to you and all the other brothers and sisters on here for the “ignorant” comment. It was wrong and there is no excuse, but the fact is, I came over here from Justin Taylor’s blog and a thread on Rothko’s art which turned into a thread on art and the Christian in general. Many of the comments on there WERE ignorant, and the anti-art tendency in evangelicalism REALLY frustrates me. When I hopped over here and started reading what I do consider to be illegitimate criticisms of one of the best Christian “pop” artists around these days, I let my frustration with the crowd on JT’s art thread carry over here and blur my vision and my thinking. Again, I apologize.

I too know Derek’s music, theology, soapboxes, etc., quite well. It seems to me that he started his career in one place and you disapprove of where he has gone from there. What I think you are missing is the continuity from the beginning of his career till now. Perhaps it is a subjective observation; I have not a particular interest in “proving” it. But I think it’s there. I think Derek has followed through on what he started in “She Must and Shall”.

Also I am not taking the elitist stance and saying that people disagree because they don’t understand. (Of course, the fact that I used the word “ignorant” communicated that. I am sorry.) In this case people are disagreeing with what Derek does and says for a variety of reasons.

You accuse Derek of “parading his liberty” because he so blatantly lets everyone know that he drinks and essentially says a person is a fool to prefer a “new law” to a biblical understanding of moderation and liberty. In the context of a song such as New Law (railing hardcore against moralism, legalism, and the self-righteousness that ensues, ending in death), I would have thought (knowing now that you are not a teetotaler and don’t seem to be a legalist) that you would have welcomed such a song. (BTW, I wondered if you were a teetotaler because of you comments about this line in your review of Mockingbird)

It seems you and others have taken issue with two basic things:

1) Much of Derek’s recent writing is just bad poetry.

2) Much of what he has said is bad for Christians (particularly kids) to hear.

Concerning number one, if it’s true, I simply think you have a narrow-minded view of what constitutes good poetry. (I’m going to just leave it alone, though, as that is a very lengthy discussion.)

Concerning two, what could be better for typical evangelicals (and their kids) to hear than messages that (artistically) amount to “grace good, legalism bad,” for example. Or, concerning some of the lines you’ve criticized in this post, you say, “Derek Webb …seems to think it�s cute to characterize sin as romance.” Come on! It’s metaphor! What else do I need to say? (I would not advocate complete antinomian freedom in our use of metaphor, however, so please don’t respond in that way.) So, back to my point for number one.

Brother, I appreciate what you are doing with this blog, so please accept my comments with the respect and brotherly Christian affection with which I offer them.

Matt, thank you so much. I too have been following some of the comments on Taylor’s Rothko post and have been disappointed. I love art and try to make that a regular emphasis here at my blog and I’ll be honest: I think that’s part of what disappoints me about Webb.

Much of Christian music is rightly criticized for being used as little more than a propaganda wagon. Songs and/or artists are often criticized for being not “overtly Christian” enough. I feel that Webb simply does the same thing except with his own agenda. It’s come to the point that with every new album, the sound may change a bit, but at least with the past two, I’ve been fairly sure what I was going to hear before I heard it and that’s quite disappointing.

My concern is not that he tackles tough issues, I wish more Christians would. My concern is that he’s made his career a soapbox and personally (****this is only my opinion****) I feel his artistic use of words has failed in the process; he seems to have elevated content over form, the very thing he often criticizes CCM for doing.

As for “New Law,” on its own I personally think it’s a great song with a challenging message. In fact I used it in a presentation I did on Christians who make music at Southwestern Seminary. However, when taken in the context of his larger canon it loses its appeal considerably and fades into the fabric of propaganda.

I do feel there’s an “I’m right/everyone else is wrong” in much of Webb’s music and many of his fans and that troubles me. This comes with the assumption that if you criticize in the slightest, it’s because you’re with “The Man.” I’m not yet I do have concerns about Webb’s approach. This seems unfathomable to some of his fans.

I love that he causes so much discussion. That doesn’t necessarily mean what he does is right but it does mean that Christians are being challenged in ways they might not have been otherwise.

That’s quite enough for a textbox at this point. Thanks again Matt. I certainly welcome your comments and discussion.

Brent, thanks for the continuing conversation and for the explanation you’ve given. One point you made that I really want to consider more is found in this quote:

“I feel his artistic use of words has failed in the process; he seems to have elevated content over form, the very thing he often criticizes CCM for doing.”

I believe you are getting at the lack of artistic subtlety that comes out sometimes in Derek’s songs. I was playing “Savior on Capital Hill” for a friend of mine the other week, and his comment was that he didn’t like the song because the message is just too right out in front. My friend is (as I am) quite disappointed with Bush’s presidency and against the war in Iraq (another issue for another day), so he agreed with the content of the song. But his criticism was basically the same as yours–there is a lack of harmony between form and content; the overt content dominates. Now, I can agree; probably such upfront lyrics should be unnecessary because form is content. My friend gave the example of some of Dylan’s protest songs, which seem all obscure and meaningless till he hits you with the punchline and tells you what it’s all about and your like, “Oh yeah, right. Wow!” His point was that when you write about big, controversial topics you shouldn’t just say it; you should say it by not really saying it. OK, I can agree, and I want to think about this further with Derek’s music.

As far as your association of Derek’s music with the stereotypes of CCM, perhaps I just see it differently, but I don’t think of his music as “Christian” music at all. Though his Christianity comes out in his lyrics (as I think it naturally should), he’s broken enough “laws” of CCM to be outside of those ranks. His “propaganda” is MUCH different from the propaganda of typical CCM. Besides, every artist does propaganda to one extent or another, Christian and secular. Propagandizing has to fall on a scale of degrees; some do it more overtly than others, but most do it (even the good ones).

I have talked with Derek about some of these very things. He used to hit people over the head with Reformed theology (even in his songs). Now he says that he has grown and become secure enough in his faith that he doesn’t need to be always defensive (or offensive) about it. This is true; he doesn’t write songs like “Thankful” any more, though I believe he is still a Calvinist. I think the same will ultimately go for his pacifist and socially concerned views. Or…maybe that will be his schtick for the rest of his life, since we have to live in this world and with our pagan neighbors…maybe this is Derek’s way of doing good loudly in the City of Man while he quietly does good in the City of God through his local church. (BTW, on this note, Derek does not see his music career as his minstry–I think rightly. He sees ministry taking place in his church and in his city through his church.)

Brent,

I agree with your overall evaluation of Derek Webb. I don’t see how anyone could say that he doesn’t have an agenda. Of course he has an agenda! It’s just not the “white middle-class Republican” one. But make no mistake, he has an agenda.

Good review.

Much luf,
Denny Burk

[...] I don’t know what the album will be like. But I hope it’s as good as “40 Acres,” the album that I consider to be the high water mark of Caedmon’s Call music. It will be interesting to see how lefty Derek fits in with the old band (see my critiques of “Mockingbird” and Brent Thomas’ review of Webb’s new album). Maybe they’ve all moved to the left too. In any case, I am hoping that Caedmon’s Call 3.0 has worked out all the bugs and that the latest version will be even better than the original.   [...]

I just had some kind of motivation to come back here and check out what’s happened in the last couple of weeks to this thread.

Matt H…nice work. I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said and you’ve said it much more effectively then I could have.

I did want to add some comments here about the above comment regarding DW’s “agenda” and some other concerns that his language was “my way or the highway” in nature.

It strikes me as funny that people in this arena (religion) would fault someone for speaking with any degree of certainty. Does Jesus tell us that the first commandment should be to love God? Does the not say that the second is to love our neighbors as we love God? These are not subtleties or interpretations. This is what was said, right? So why all the fuss? Isn’t his “agenda” echoing Jesus’ own statements and discussing the challenge of living them out in his own life (which is also what SMASGF was about as well).

Martin

I just wanted to update this thread to note that I’m moderating some of my criticism from comment #5 above.

I’ve encapsulated my recent thoughts in comment #6 of Brent’s How To Begin Thinking Biblically About Music (Revised).

You guys have got to be kidding. (I’m addressing the review and the majority opinion of the first few comments.) It is a song. A SONG.

Derek never said “hey i took other people’s money and fornicated and fondly reminisce about it all.” first of all, however you interpret the surface meaning of the lyrics, who says it’s biographical and fact accurate. the voice that the writer writes is not necessarily intended to be the writer’s voice or from the writer’s POV. it is a song.

second, a minor point, even the voice of the song doesn’t claim to have done all the things he mentions (though it’s probably implied), just that he wants to do them now with his wife.

third, and most significantly, why would you assume the worst interpretation of every idiom in the song? e.g. “make out” and “on their dime”? if the record company paid to send him to nashville on business and he saw his sweetheart while he was there, then he courted her on their dime, but it would be hard to say there was anything wrong with it. and “making out” can mean lots of things. i think if you hear it and assume it meant something sinful, that says something about where your mind is.

can you ever just appreciate a fun, happy song? not that you should turn off your brain and abandon morals, but with this song it seems like you’re just looking for any possible way words could be misread to say something objectionable.

on another note, i was a big fan of caedmon’s call, and i got all derek’s albums after he went solo, but never really got into it until mockingbird. then i went back and gave the older ones another listen, and they are pretty good after all, i just never gave them a chance before. it does seem lyrically and thematically that he had some things he was waiting to say, said them all, and now has more trouble finding new things to say. but i’d say that musically each album has been at least as good as than the last.

i also don’t get the whole criticism about mockingbird not being good enough art. (i’ve heard this from musician friends are decent but haven’t done anything to compete with webb. i certainly haven’t heard it from anybody i’d consider to be at or above webb’s talent level.) again, who are you kidding? what would be good art? (really, what? coldplay?) it may not be the best music and lyrics ever written and recorded but it’s decent. yes, the lyrics may be a bit “ham-fisted” and “preachy”, especially to those of us to whom the themes are already old hat, but who in the CCM industry is even bringing these important things up? i think the quality of the art is good enough to get it heard and respected, and it’s good that what he said got said. you may consider it cliché, but i surmise it will be thought-provoking to plenty of hearers.

somebody here, go ahead, write some “good artful” lyrics and post them here. right. don’t kid yourself, kids.

Everyone has their own little quirks and eccentricities. Take the comment about going into a Christian book store and buying music by someone who denys the Trinity. Here is a news flash, there are plenty of Christians who deny the trinity, myself for one. Build a bridge and get over it. I cannot find a scripture that says popular music, wearing the “christian” label or otherwise what charged with preaching the gospel, so its probably best not to expect it too.
If you do not like Derek Webb from a musical standpoint, thats cool cause thats what having an opinion is all about.
Also, Derek courting Sarah on the record labels dime was very profitable for the record label, and seeing as how he talks about it in a song, he did it with their blessing, so to speak. Point is, he is human, and as such, he is bound to do stuff wrong from time to time. At least he has the fortitude to bear his soul to folks like you and I with no pretense of being something he is not, trading sins for others, that are easier to hide, so to speak.
Thats my .02, for whatever thats worth.

In response to Brent’s original review i must say that it was entirely too much. OK, you aren’t a fan of Derek Webb. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have talent and it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with his music. I find Webb’s work to be brilliant, but that is beside the point really. I think that people like Brent are the reason I am so turned off of “Christian” music. It is full of nothing more than Bibles and bubbles. Yes, I am a Christian, but I find the whole entire genre of Christian music offensive, with only few exceptions. Many of the bands I love are Christian bands. However, I think by saying it is simply “Christian” music you are putting yourself in a box and therefore eliminating the ministry that music has the potential to be. The sick are the ones that need a doctor, but they will not listen to music that could be ministry for them if they are turned away by the label of it being exclusively Christian. I don’t believe that Webb puts himself in that box. Yes, he is a Christian and his music has Christian overtones, but I would listen to it even if I weren’t a Christian. It is simply good music. Brent however, attacks it because it’s content matter isn’t full of pure Christian values. Neither is the Bible! The Bible is the entire basis for my faith, and I would assume, yours as well. However, it is full of all manner of sinful accounts. That does NOT make it a sinful book. Neither does Webb’s mention of sin make his music sin. Neither does his songs glorify sin! I believe you are reading entirely too much into this. Additionally, you make negative assumptions about the content of the songs. I see that you have many points, although I believe your attack of Webb is not only unnecessary, but also inaccurate.

Caleb,

I am so glad that you not only took the time to read, but to consider and reply. However, I am also quite disappointed that you have cast so many false assumptions upon me. You have assumed a great deal about my position(s) that are simply untrue and I wish you had taken the time to follow the links at comment #29 before saying that people like me “are the reason I am so turned off of “Christian” music.”

A few people seem to be implying that Derek Webb is the only Christian doing anything original with his music.

Before you go casting aspersions on Christian music, I’d recommend y’all check out:
- Anathallo
- Sufjan Stevens
- Havalina
- Woven Hand
- Danielson

I know I’m forgetting some musicians, but that’s a decent starting point.

Darnit I messed up the first two links in my last message. Here they are properly formatted:

- Anathallo
- Sufjan

Brent,

sorry for several of the aspects of my rant. i didn’t intend to be so harsh and some similar arguments with other people negatively impacted my response to your article. i still don’t agree with a lot of what you wrote, but i apologize for all the false assumptions (ironically, the very thing i had a gripe with). perhaps it’d be best if i just kept quite.

“Rather the issue is one of all Christians being called to edify and avoid unnecessary stumbling blocks regardless of their vocation.”
I glanced back at #29 and you do have a point. My gripe wasn’t totally the issue. However, I still think you make some negative assumptions about Webb’s music. While I guess this goes along with the whole “all things are permissible but not all things are good” verse, I believe the negative connotations of Webb’s songs were taken out of context. I do agree that much of the political commentary is unneccessary, but at the same time it is up to the artist to decide what he will sing about. As someone else said, nearly everyone is making a point, Webb is just more forward about it and this seems to be the source of the complaint.